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Topic Title: 17th Edition pending
Topic Summary: Skts in UK bathrooms!
Created On: 14 September 2006 05:57 PM
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 14 September 2006 05:57 PM
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SpaElectrical

Posts: 1479
Joined: 16 December 2003

Straight from the NAPIT site:

Quote:

Dear Member,
A new version of BS7671 (the 17th Edition), is due to be released on the 1st January 2008, to come into force on the 1st June 2008.

The committee that oversees this publication and approves it's content, is called JPEL/64 and under this committee, are a number of specialist 'panels' that make recommendations to it.

One panel, Panel C, is responsible for 'Protection against Electric Shock, Isolation and Switching' and they have recommended that the European wide acceptance of sockets in bathrooms be adopted by the UK in the next edition of the regulations.

Up until now, the UK have applied an SNC (Special National Condition) exemption to this and not normally allowed sockets (other than SELV and Shaver sockets) in Bathrooms (see Regulation 601-08-01)

The recommendation from Panel C to JPEL/64, is to allow sockets in bathrooms, in the new version of the regulations, outside Zone 2 i.e. greater than 0.6m from the bath or shower, providing they are protected by a 30mA RCD.

The purpose behind this message is to allow YOU a chance to voice your comments on this issue, to NAPIT, before the Panel C proposal to JPEL/64 is made on the 20th September.

To allow us time to read your responses and to produce statistics to present to JPEL/64 before this date, this message and your response (and email address of jpel64m@napit.org.uk) will only be available until Monday the 18th September.

If we get sufficient interest and response to this message, we will endeavour to give you, our members, a regular voice in matters of this kind in the future, in order to allow you to influence the industry in which you are a vital part.

Regards
Eddie Trayner
Technical Director - NAPIT




How ridiculous is that? Few portable appliances are IP rated, so encouraging people to introduce such appliances into bathrooms is very naive! Even if they reckon they won't get splashed, the atmosphere is usually far too humid.

If it was April 1st I'd understand it, but it looks like the IEE has lost it...



-------------------------
"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
 14 September 2006 07:14 PM
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deleted_johnwoods

Posts: 997
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Does that mean (no longer SNC) that bathrooms will no longer be a special location so Partp won't apply.

Seriously though the fact that they are canvassing opinion over such a short space of time, only a few days to form a reply, may say why we have such half baked legislation at present.
If the powers that be want realistic responses they need to send a full set of clear proposals with some sort of yes/no voting system to all practicing electricians. Give them time to respond, and chase them to ensure a decent percentage do respond.

I have seen some surveys done before and usually after the results are in they need to as people why they voted as they did. Not unreasonable as it takes time to look at all aspects of such things.
Saying 51% said yes and 49% said no means it is a good idea and we should do it, don't think so. I would expect an 80%+ yes vote to be sure an idea is acceptable. Because if it is not acceptable it is not readily enforcable.

-------------------------
You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi
 14 September 2006 07:15 PM
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Chgspark

Posts: 62
Joined: 18 July 2006

Whats to stop anyone plugging an extension lead into an upstairs socket and using that to supply equipment in a bathroom? I did it as a kid for my portable radio.
When I had a bath.
I can remember my mum hoovering the carpet whilst the bath was running and the room full of steam!!!

what ever safety measures are brought in to place, ie rcd protected sockets for upstairs sockets, (as well as those which could reasonably supply outside equipment)

People will still do what the hell they want to in their own homes regardless of the saftey issues, people smoke despite the health risks!

Bring it on sockets in bathrooms, would like to know the statistics and accident/death rates from other countries caused by tihs practise.

Nige.
 15 September 2006 08:36 AM
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gkenyon

Posts: 5354
Joined: 06 May 2002

Originally posted by: SpaElectrical
How ridiculous is that? Few portable appliances are IP rated, so encouraging people to introduce such appliances into bathrooms is very naive! Even if they reckon they won't get splashed, the atmosphere is usually far too humid.
The point is, that people can already run any appliance in a bathroom - as Nige says, via extension lead.

Of course, the CPC in the lead doesn't have any bonding to the bathroom.

Why should we pass up the opportunity to ensure that sockets in bathrooms are suitably protected and bonded, to reduce the risks that people are already exposing themselves to ?

So - how ridiculous is it ?

-------------------------
EUR ING Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
G Kenyon Technology Ltd

Web-Site: www.gkenyontech.com
 15 September 2006 08:49 AM
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normcall

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Strangly, I was in the wholsalers yesterday when a guy wondered in and asked if I was a sparks. He wanted to know if he could install a socket in the bathroom for his wifes hairdryer. After discusson, I think I sold him a wall mounted hair dryer , but I think he will continue using the extension lead for the time being. I suggested a 10mA RCD if he insists on this practice.
But what can you do?

-------------------------
Norman
 15 September 2006 08:58 AM
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pm70511

Posts: 118
Joined: 07 March 2005

All,

Two sides of the coin evenly debated hear you are all right in what you say in the above posts. No matter what way we go on this one it won't make a blind bit of difference.

the only way to stop your self not getting a belt is not to sit in the bath and use your hair dryer at the same time, which i bet people do via an extension lead!

My other half often stands in the bathroom with her hair straightners plugged into a socket in the next room and uses them because the lighting and the mirror in the bathroom are ideal.

I suggest that we do what ever with the sockets because it wont stop the user taking the portable equipment into zone 2,1,0 now will it un less we limit the length of lead.

However what should be seriously considered is the we insist on all socket outlets being RCD protected period, this is with in our control the rest of the above is down to good old common sense.

No we all know sense is very common don't we?

-------------------------
Kind Regards

PM70511

Why do kamikaze pilots ware crash helmets?????
How do you know the fridge light goes off when the door is closed?????
 15 September 2006 03:48 PM
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anguskitchin

Posts: 59
Joined: 24 November 2002

I think that if the regulations ARE going to adopt sockets in bathrooms (zone 3 only) then it should be done in such a way as to more or less ensure compliance. That is to say that it should be, say, a 10 or 15 mA RCD (as has already been suggested) but that the RCD is built into the socket. Hence you'd get a 'bathroom approved' socket which would be marketed and sold to Joe Public in the same way a 'barhtoom approved' light fitting is. Clearly people will and do still buy unsuitable light fittings and there is nothing to say that people will buy these lower mA RCD sockets, particularly since they're going to be ££s, but it can at least impress upon people the NEED for this sort of safety.

Alternatively, what about SLV (SELV without the 'E') sockets? Would that work?

Angus
 15 September 2006 08:57 PM
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SpaElectrical

Posts: 1479
Joined: 16 December 2003

Agree that some people already use mains kit in bathrooms, but I believe it shouldn't be encouraged by amending the regs.
And no, we cannot stop someone running in an extension lead, but at least those who succomb will be proactively enhancing the gene pool.
Charles Darwin couldn't think of everything could he!



-------------------------
"Let the evidence guide the research. Do not have a preconceived agenda which will only distort the result."
 15 September 2006 09:07 PM
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DOUGIE1000

Posts: 4243
Joined: 13 August 2005

I asked a SELECT employee today regarding 17th edition.

So far he said it definetly wont be in 2007, but will be in approx Jan 2008, and in force 6months later.

Main changed being bathrooms, he said any fixed equipment and electricial accesories including showers, lights, shavers ect ect can be installed in almost any zones as long as min ipx4 and 30mA rcd even SELV.

Dougie

-------------------------
Dougie
Power Plus Electrical.co.uk

My mission is to live as long as possible......so far so good!

Edited: 15 September 2006 at 09:08 PM by DOUGIE1000
 17 September 2006 03:18 PM
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deleted_2_Dotnet

Posts: 78
Joined: 31 July 2006

Hi All

I don't like the idea about sockets in bathrooms - but like everything in this country Europe takes presidence over common sense !!!!

I would suggest the following be incorporated

Increase Zone 2 to 2.5m then you won't be able to stand in the bath and physically touch any type of outlet. Then allow a socket in Zone 3 with RCD 15mA protection

Make ALL sockets (rings) RCD protected

Lastly, make all types of breakers double pole

When I did my 2391 course my lecturer stated a story (as they do) about a meeting he had over a coffee with some regulatory bodies from Europe. They stated to him (off the record) that the majority of Europe agreed we had the best wiring system and standards but it would cost the community too much money to change to our system.

Matt
 17 September 2006 05:27 PM
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deleted_johnwoods

Posts: 997
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Just realised that the reason such as France allows sockets in bathrooms is that they are usually 30mA RCD protected by default. All recent French installs I have seen have all RCD protected circuits, so they can do this.

I did like the idea of an approved bathroom socket, that makes a lot of sense.
This could be standard 10ma trip and wouldn't trip anything else if it went. Hopefully they may add this provision to the regs as we don't automatically have all circits RCD protected here, and usually none in older properties.

So if they don't specify this as the only option and mark sockets as bathroom approved or similar DIYers will just fit normal sockets not realising about the need for an RCD ?

-------------------------
You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi
 17 September 2006 05:36 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6735
Joined: 02 December 2004

You`ll still get DIYers putting a twin socket in a bthroom and plugging a shaver adapter into it I`m afraid

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 17 September 2006 05:40 PM
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Legh

Posts: 4427
Joined: 17 December 2004

Originally posted by: normcall

Strangly, I was in the wholsalers yesterday when a guy wondered in and asked if I was a sparks. He wanted to know if he could install a socket in the bathroom for his wifes hairdryer. After discusson, I think I sold him a wall mounted hair dryer , but I think he will continue using the extension lead for the time being. I suggested a 10mA RCD if he insists on this practice.

But what can you do?

I quite like the idea of a bathroom socket radial protected by a 10mA RCBO. Probably very useful for the larger than average bathroom.
Legh

-------------------------

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

de-avatared
 18 September 2006 12:36 AM
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deleted_student101

Posts: 221
Joined: 21 April 2006

Today, anyone (designers or installers) who installed in a bathroom a socket outlet with or without RCD protection happens to have someone killed can be prosecuted and the victim's family may get compensations because Part-P (through BS7671 Section 601) does not allow it. For merely the sake of purely commercial benefits to appliance manufacturers, is it really worth us saying the previous regulations are over-cautious and no longer valid? I wonder if we already have lots of deaths with people bringing an extension lead into the bathrooms? How do you close the bathroom door with an extension lead trailing?

Let's say if sometime in the future, the Regulations changed and allow socket outlets in bathroom and someone got killed, they will merely become part of a new statistics. When the statistics shows that e.g., speeding, is the main cause of road deaths in the road, you will try to find ways such as speed cameras, stationery police vehicles etc to try to remedy the situation. Like the highway police said in their speed seminars, tell it to the family of the victims what should or should not have happened only if...!

If we do not have socket outlets in the bathroom, do we introduce 'danger' into the bathroom? Cars do not kill people, it's the action of the driver behind the wheels who will kill either themselves or others? I don't know how the judicial system works, but if the 'Regulations maker (i.e., BSI/IEE)' makes a new Regulation that eventually leads to several deaths in the community that wouldn't have happened if business as usual, would the Regulations maker be prosecuted by the Director of Public Prosecution with manslaughter charges? Can the families of the victims sue the Regulations Maker in a civil court action?

SNC if still can be applied may not be a bad thing or hopefully we will not see a new episode of this in "Seconds to Disasters" in the future.

I think BSI/IEE should publish the accident statistics they got from HSE/DTI and other countries for bathrooms to justify their decision to change or apply SNC.
 18 September 2006 06:59 AM
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normcall

Posts: 8550
Joined: 15 January 2005

Exactly where in the Building Regulations does it say a socket cannot be installed in a bathroom.
The only reference I can think of is were compliance with BS7671 will ensure compliance with the Building Regulations - but compliance with BS7671 is not necessary to comply with the Building Regulations.

-------------------------
Norman
 18 September 2006 07:07 AM
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ebee

Posts: 6735
Joined: 02 December 2004

Norman I think you`re correct.
Indded working to any European or other national standard is permitted by Part P (The Law) as I understand it from the approved doc, so you may put a socket in a bathroom.
I wouldn`t though

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 18 September 2006 06:57 PM
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deleted_student101

Posts: 221
Joined: 21 April 2006

Ebee and Norman,

I understand that 'compliance with BS7671 is more than likely to satisfy Part P'. Please enlighten me if I am missing something here, are you saying that an average sparkie can apply other EU or International standards to a UK domestic installation if they wanted to? Are the EU or other national standards much more sparkie friendly and can be easily understood much more readily than BS7671?

Say if there exist some other EU regulations revolutionise everything we do in the past:
* no maximum disconnection time need to comply with
* no mandatory main bonding needed
* no mandatory local equipotential bonding for conductive parts required in bathrooms
* RCD protected socket outlets permitted in all kind of special locations including wet-rooms, pools, shower/bathrooms etc

Are you happy to use such EU regs and not BS7671 to comply with Part P?

101
 18 September 2006 07:15 PM
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deleted_johnwoods

Posts: 997
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I do believe that people can use any regs under partp (from other threads here) but it is mad to do so.

I hate to say it but I think you can already fit an RCD protected socket in zone 3 under the 16th edition regs. The original post said outside zone 2 - so that would be zone 3 onwards then.

See 601-09-03, last paragraph. In zone 3 equipment other than fixed shall be protected by RCD <= 30mA.
Not something I have seen or done but you can do it right now if you like as long as RCD protected. In fact I can do it if I want to as my bathrooms are upstairs and the sockets and the lights there are on the RCD side.

-------------------------
You must be the change you want to see in the world - Mahatma Gandhi
 18 September 2006 07:35 PM
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deleted_student101

Posts: 221
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CPSC estimates that 17 people -- 10 of whom are children under 10 years of age -- are electrocuted each year in similar accidents involving hand-held hair dryers.

CPSC urged consumers to have ground-fault circuit interrupters (GFCIs) installed in bathroom and kitchen circuits to reduce chances of electrocution.

The corollary question is - how many GFCIs have been recalled by the manufacturers in the past?

p.s. The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), an independent regulatory agency of the United States Government, was established to protect the public against unreasonable risks of injuries and deaths associated with consumer products. The CPSC has jurisdiction over approximately 15,000 different types of products from coffee makers, to toys, to lawn mowers, to fireworks.

Edited: 18 September 2006 at 07:44 PM by deleted_student101
 19 September 2006 07:12 AM
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ebee

Posts: 6735
Joined: 02 December 2004

When I say that Part P permitts it (or more correctly the approved document) I myself do not consider it wise to do so because I can forsee all sorts of problems with it.
Personally I treat BS7671 as mandatory and indeed I wish it was a legal requirement in its own right.

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
IET » Wiring and the regulations » 17th Edition pending

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