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Topic Title: Work done by others
Topic Summary: Certification
Created On: 11 March 2019 08:57 am
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 11 March 2019 08:57 am
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Timeserved

Posts: 146
Joined: 18 October 2016

Morning all, I have noticed that there is a number of builders/home owners that do the 1st & 2nd fix of an electrical installation and then only employ the services of an electrician when the new board is installed hoping that the installation of the board will cover the rest of the work leading up to this. Just wanted to know everyones thoughts on these kind of practises, personally I think this takes away from our income and as such is not welcomed, I've made it clear to a couple of my clients that I will only raise the certificate to cover the fuse board upgrade as per guidelines.

Regards
TS
 11 March 2019 09:56 am
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mapj1

Posts: 12039
Joined: 22 July 2004

Well, supervising the work of others is OK, assuming the sparks has the paper trail to allow him or her to do 3rd party verifiction, and is aware and happy with the quality of the 1/2 fix it is OK, though he should be popping his head in at various stages (or maybe requesting photos) before it gets boxed in, so he knows what he is signing for. It is not quite the same as inspecting the work of a wireman you supervise and employ.
However, it could be a risky game to 'adopt' the work of someone you do not know and trust, especially if you are not involved in the initial installation. Clearly the testing and inspection that occurs when a new board is fitted provides some degree of top cover, as hopefully anything terrrible should be spotted, but it is not guarantteed, and if only to avoid comeback, if the only job is really a board change, then it should be noted with the certs that the final circuits were already there when the board was changed.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 11 March 2019 10:49 am
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dustydazzler

Posts: 3068
Joined: 19 January 2016

I have recently been asked 6 or 7 times to sign off new wiring for various builders and diyers , on all occassions I have declined.


I will happily finish off jobs that have been started by others and adopt as my own after a quick look see and then finsih off and test properly

but I won't just issue certs like confetti
 11 March 2019 10:53 am
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dustydazzler

Posts: 3068
Joined: 19 January 2016

I should add that there is nothing wrong with 3rd party work and 3rd party certification if done properly

Infact it is very nice easy work at the right price

But when I have stated in the past its a full days work to test and certificate anothers already completed job I get no uptake
 11 March 2019 11:25 am
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mikejumper

Posts: 2810
Joined: 14 December 2006

Originally posted by: Timeserved
....I've made it clear to a couple of my clients that I will only raise the certificate to cover the fuse board upgrade as per guidelines.
TS

But wouldn't you be taking responsibility for everything you connect to it as well?
 11 March 2019 11:34 am
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dustydazzler

Posts: 3068
Joined: 19 January 2016

Originally posted by: mikejumper

Originally posted by: Timeserved

....I've made it clear to a couple of my clients that I will only raise the certificate to cover the fuse board upgrade as per guidelines.

TS


But wouldn't you be taking responsibility for everything you connect to it as well?


I did a whole heap of board changes for a company a while back 2005-2008 ish ..

Many of which involved adding new circuits wired by kitchen and bathroom companies etc etc

They issued certs for boards with a disclaimer saying that they take no responsibility for any of the wiring just the board.

I believe they got pulled up by their CPS on this on more than one occasion.

My understanding is if you change a consumers unit you are now taking responsibility for the whole installation

You can't just wash your hands of anything
 11 March 2019 12:44 pm
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 17795
Joined: 13 August 2003

But wouldn't you be taking responsibility for everything you connect to it as well?

My understanding is if you change a consumers unit you are now taking responsibility for the whole installation

I disagree - any BS 7671 certificate only covers the work you have been responsible for carrying out - just read the declarations on the certs - you can't sign for design if you didn't design it, you can't sign for construction if you didn't construct it You could perhaps inspect & test an existing installation, but that won't give you a complete certificate - just a (useless) third of a one. It's like the old adage that you can't test-in quality - it needs to be design-in and it needs to be built-in. Full paperwork covering any existing part of an installation done by others is done by a report (e.g. an EICR), not a certificate.

The choice of the word "Installation" in an Electrical Installation Certificate is perhaps poor - job public often assumes it refers to the entire electrical installation at the premises, rather than what has just been installed. Always make sure you fill out the 'Extent of installation covered by this certificate' box correctly!

- Andy.
 11 March 2019 01:08 pm
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Alcomax

Posts: 450
Joined: 12 November 2009

Originally posted by: dustydazzler

Originally posted by: mikejumper



Originally posted by: Timeserved



....I've made it clear to a couple of my clients that I will only raise the certificate to cover the fuse board upgrade as per guidelines.



TS




But wouldn't you be taking responsibility for everything you connect to it as well?




I did a whole heap of board changes for a company a while back 2005-2008 ish ..



Many of which involved adding new circuits wired by kitchen and bathroom companies etc etc



They issued certs for boards with a disclaimer saying that they take no responsibility for any of the wiring just the board.



I believe they got pulled up by their CPS on this on more than one occasion.



My understanding is if you change a consumers unit you are now taking responsibility for the whole installation



You can't just wash your hands of anything


My understanding is if you change a consumers unit you are now taking responsibility for the whole installation


That is a contract decision and not a well advised one.
It is a consumer unit replacement.

But wouldn't you be taking responsibility for everything you connect to it as well?


Depends what you mean by responsibility. If it is a replacement board, the circuits are existing and in-service. In such an instance it is down to reasoned judgement on reasonable provision for safety, isolating them, removing old board and connecting existing circuits to new board.

If you are connecting whole new circuits, 1st fixed by others and not energised by them, then that is different, but there is still a method of proceeding by which you do not take on unnecessary risk and Timeserved seems to be taking this approach.

BS7671 land, if you decide to inhabit it, assumes an inflexible binary approach to alterations and additions based on the incorrect assumption that all existing work was done to standard in the first instance. This can lead to the fallacy that any future addition or alteration somehow gives a pseudo absolution of all ills to existing wiring. This weakness is exploited by CPSchemes to keep electricians in their place, in order to then extract more money from them and force improvements financially beneficial to switchgear manufacturer's.

Builders [ and some DIYers] have caught onto the Part P wheeze as a means of laundering dodgy, dangerous or spent installations.


Edited to add:
AJs post above has beaten me to it and there is some duplication in this post.
 11 March 2019 01:37 pm
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ebee

Posts: 6735
Joined: 02 December 2004

Just take responsibility for what you have actually done and do your best to ensure the existing is safe.

If I mount a CU (or socket or lightswitch) on a wall I do not take resposibillity for the wall, if it falls down it`s nowt to do with me (unless I weakend it off course)

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 11 March 2019 04:57 pm
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dustydazzler

Posts: 3068
Joined: 19 January 2016

I suppose when ever you do anything in a house you are adopting some level of responsibility for the rest of the installation.

That is when the form filling actually becomes quite important that you clearly state exactly what work you did , so you don't leave yourself open to any comebacks


How many times have we heard someone say 'it was fine before you touched it' .....!!
 11 March 2019 05:03 pm
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ebee

Posts: 6735
Joined: 02 December 2004

Exactly Dusty , like "My TV no longer works, it did before you rewired my house therefore your rewire is letting too much electric into my TV". The favourite has got to be " The electrics keep tripping on my electric fire, I`ve had it since World War one and it`s always been ok until now even with the frayed flex"

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 12 March 2019 08:51 am
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Timeserved

Posts: 146
Joined: 18 October 2016

Originally posted by: mikejumper

Originally posted by: Timeserved

....I've made it clear to a couple of my clients that I will only raise the certificate to cover the fuse board upgrade as per guidelines.

TS


But wouldn't you be taking responsibility for everything you connect to it as well?


No because someone else has designed and constructed, certicates for that part of the work should be provided by the relevant organisation.
Ts
 12 March 2019 10:22 am
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mikejumper

Posts: 2810
Joined: 14 December 2006

Originally posted by: Timeserved
....I've made it clear to a couple of my clients that I will only raise the certificate to cover the fuse board upgrade as per guidelines...
TS

What certificate would you issue in this situation TS?
 12 March 2019 10:35 am
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dustydazzler

Posts: 3068
Joined: 19 January 2016

Originally posted by: mikejumper

Originally posted by: Timeserved

....I've made it clear to a couple of my clients that I will only raise the certificate to cover the fuse board upgrade as per guidelines...

TS


What certificate would you issue in this situation TS?


Minor Works of course silly ....
 12 March 2019 10:56 am
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 17795
Joined: 13 August 2003

Originally posted by: mikejumper

Originally posted by: Timeserved

....I've made it clear to a couple of my clients that I will only raise the certificate to cover the fuse board upgrade as per guidelines...

TS


What certificate would you issue in this situation TS?


EIC - with the 'Alteration to an existing installation' box ticked, 'Extent of installation covered by this certificate' box filled in to indicate replacement CU only and anything you notice about the existing installation you don't like the look of mentioned in the 'Comments on existing installation' box.

- Andy.
 12 March 2019 01:18 pm
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chrispearson

Posts: 1095
Joined: 15 February 2018

If you install a new fusebox, then you need to test the circuits. What do you do if a circuit is defective? Leave it unconnected?
 12 March 2019 01:32 pm
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ectophile

Posts: 857
Joined: 17 September 2001

Originally posted by: chrispearson

If you install a new fusebox, then you need to test the circuits. What do you do if a circuit is defective? Leave it unconnected?


I suspect that depends on whether or not you want the customer to pay you at the end of the job.

-------------------------
S P Barker BSc PhD IEng MIET
 12 March 2019 02:06 pm
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 17795
Joined: 13 August 2003

If you install a new fusebox, then you need to test the circuits.

Arguably the tests only need to be sufficient to show that your new work complies. Any unrelated existing faults shouldn't detract from that. Admittedly that's not always easy with the normal test (a low IR of itself doesn't tell you whether the problem is in the old work or new) but with a bit of care (e.g. recording IR before and after) or say conducting c.p.c. continuity to the first accessory rather than end of circuit, should reduce or account for the influence of the old installation. Suitable notes on the schedule/certificate as to where the tests have been conducted to, and suitable comments in the comments on the existing installation box, should make things clear to the reader.

Some care is needed of course - in some cases you do need to be able to show that, say Zs at the furthest point is within current limits - e.g. when a change of protective device decreases the maximum permitted Zs (e.g. replacing a 15A rewireable fuse with a 16A MCB) or the cables have been extended (say for a CU relocation).

Of course, the best course of events is to bring the problem to the customer's attention and for them to agree to (and pay to) have it properly fixed, but that's not always possible, in which case some improvement (a new CU alone say) is better than nothing. What's that phrase about making perfection the enemy of the good?

- Andy.
 14 March 2019 01:30 am
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RB1981

Posts: 513
Joined: 16 September 2007

Originally posted by: AJJewsbury

You could perhaps inspect & test an existing installation

Even then the inspection will be limited as opposed to an initial verification as not all aspects may be possible to verify, unlike with inspection during erection as well as upon completion.

-------------------------
Walsh Electrical Services
http://www.walshelectrical.ie/
RECI REC & NICEIC Approved Contractor
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