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Topic Title: Light Years Ahead.
Topic Summary: Green Energy and Modern Systems.
Created On: 15 February 2019 07:53 PM
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 19 February 2019 07:41 PM
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OMS

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Joined: 23 March 2004

By no means an official figure, but counting for the manufacture of credible quantities of steel and concrete, a typical 1MW unit could have consumed at least 250 tonnes of CO2 = 250000 kg

Typical grid CO2 in the UK is around 0.5kg/kWh

Running a 1MW turbine displaces about 500kg per hour compared to the grid

250000/500 = 500 hours before it's CO2 neutral

I've not accounted for the energy consumed and the nasty's involved in the neodymium magnets, blade manufacture, transport CO2 factors etc - nor for carbon cost during servicing etc

So 6 months sounds pretty reasonable to me

Of course the factors get totally skewed if you account for the CO2 in conventional generation that you need when the wind isn't blowing - but at the end of the day, every MWH we get from green technology is still a very useful MWH when considered as part of a whole basketful of technologies

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 19 February 2019 10:57 PM
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broadgage

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500 hours of full load operation could well equate to very roughly 6 months of normal use.

The quoted figure of 0.5 Kg of carbon emitted per Kwh may be unduly low, It may well be an accurate average figure, including the present renewable generation.
However each new wind turbine is NOT displacing UK average generation, but is displacing coal or natural gas generation that has a much higher carbon intensity than the UK average.
 20 February 2019 08:21 AM
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tomgunn

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Tom.... (The TERMINATOR).

handyTRADESMAN

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 20 February 2019 10:16 AM
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chrispearson

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A 6 month pay-back is deeply reassuring - I would have guessed that it would have been years.
 20 February 2019 10:30 AM
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OMS

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Sure - I was just trying to reinforce the idea that wind turbines are worth having - and counter the argument that they never produce enough to offset the carbon burden in manufacture

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 20 February 2019 10:52 AM
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Zoomup

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We should be very proud of the engineering achievements involved with wind turbines. They are fabulous generators. The making of wind turbines creates many U.K. jobs. Years ago people complained about electrical pylons destroying the beauty of the countryside, now we hardly notice them and nobody really comments about them any more. This will apply to wind turbines as well. Wind turbines will be here for a very long time, so we may as well get used to them. Along with solar panels they seem to be doing a very good job.

Long live wind turbines, until we come up with something better anyway.

LOOOOOOK HERE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbnlJOEQ9Hc

Z.
 20 February 2019 12:27 PM
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rogerbryant

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I have seen figures between 6 months and 1 year for energy payback for wind turbines. I guess it depends on where they are and what you include. All seem to be based on the initial installation with no maintenance. Even so 2 or 3 gearbox changes shouldn't take you beyond 2 years energy payback for a 20-25 year life.
The figures for Solar PV are much worse. A rooftop installation in northern Europe may never repay the energy required to manufacture and install it. An installation in southern Spain takes a number of years to payback, again depending what you include. This is a little out of date but still interesting:

http://www.resilience.org/stor...le-is-pv-solar-power/

The elephant in the room, as OMS says, is the back up for when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining. You will have to build/maintain (and pay for) a lot of low utilisation equipment. Should the carbon budget for building standby diesel or gas turbines by added to the wind/solar budgets? The small Scandinavian countries can use hydro+pumped storage as well as relying on their larger neighbours.
Even with many more interconnectors to the mainland it will be difficult for the UK to do the same.

Best regards

Roger

Edited: 20 February 2019 at 01:17 PM by rogerbryant
 20 February 2019 12:49 PM
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rogerbryant

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This site gives similar figures (although in imperial units):

http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2..._au_=iVV0jrstfHDQHJSN

Best regards

Roger
 20 February 2019 01:07 PM
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broadgage

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Wind power is by no means the complete answer, but could contribute more and thus reduce reliance on imports of gas.

We also need means of encouraging MORE use of electricity at times of plentiful wind power, but NOT adding to maximum demand at times of low wind.
One possibility is to install large electric boilers at hospitals, hotels, industrial laundries, and the like. Under automatic remote control that permits of shutting down existing gas burning plant and substituting electricity during high winds, whilst reverting to gas at other times.
A few hundred such installations, each of several Mw capacity could absorb 1GW in total, spread around the country.
 20 February 2019 02:49 PM
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OMS

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Years ago people complained about electrical pylons destroying the beauty of the countryside, now we hardly notice them and nobody really comments about them any more. This will apply to wind turbines as well. Wind turbines will be here for a very long time, so we may as well get used to them. Along with solar panels they seem to be doing a very good job.


I tend to look at them as pretty well temporary in the grand scheme of things - we can erect them, use and abuse them and then clear the site all in about 20 - 25 years if we want to

Compared with say a nuclear plant or a large hydro dam or lagoon tidal scheme, which might have a footprint for 200 + years

People notice them alright - but the impact is physically short lived to be fair - as we mature the renewables, then in a few generations we may well not need them anyway (or at least in some of the current locations)

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 20 February 2019 08:26 PM
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alancapon

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Yes, but playing devil's advocate, the tide going in and out, and the creation of a nuclear reaction can produce electricity 24/7, 365 days per year. For both wind and solar, you need some kind of storage / alternative conventional plant that can operate at night, or when the wind is too strong / too weak.

Regards,

Alan.
 21 February 2019 10:29 AM
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tomgunn

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I think some people need to wake up! SORRY!

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Tom.... (The TERMINATOR).

handyTRADESMAN

Castle Builders
 21 February 2019 11:28 AM
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ebee

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In various parts of the country there are little windmills from the days of yore, Folk find them an attractive piece of history. They were orignally built for work .
So todays wind turbines I see as a modern equivalent. I don`t mind `em. Apart from up close they are noisy
As has been said, a sensible mix of renewables and traditional (or storage) but lets do the honest sums on renewables to see if they are advantageous

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 21 February 2019 11:34 AM
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sparkingchip

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 21 February 2019 11:41 AM
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sparkingchip

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 21 February 2019 11:42 AM
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OMS

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Originally posted by: tomgunn

I think some people need to wake up! SORRY!


Indeed, Tom

However, I think the wake up that's required is the very real need for an integrated energy policy for the UK - that addresses both demand and supply side

I guess that's not what you meant though

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 21 February 2019 12:59 PM
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mikejumper

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Originally posted by: ebee
In various parts of the country there are little windmills from the days of yore, Folk find them an attractive piece of history. They were orignally built for work .

So todays wind turbines I see as a modern equivalent. I don`t mind `em. Apart from up close they are noisy

And when they are no longer in use retired blokes will form preservation societies to maintain them. To raise funds they could allow people to come and charge their electric car batteries up for a modest cost.
 22 February 2019 09:22 AM
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tomgunn

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Originally posted by: OMS

Originally posted by: tomgunn



I think some people need to wake up! SORRY! [IMG][/IMG]




Indeed, Tom



However, I think the wake up that's required is the very real need for an integrated energy policy for the UK - that addresses both demand and supply side



I guess that's not what you meant though [IMG]/forums/forum/i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0[/IMG]



Regards



OMS


Hello OMS, sadly... no, that's not what I mean't BUT, who cares what I think... could be that I'm wrong!!! Maybe I should look outside of the box too, you know!

I don't want to start off any bad feelings here... been there, years' ago on here, and I have learn't my lesson as it doesn't get anyone anywhere...!

To me, as a simple sparks... it just makes logic that these wind turbines are not 'green'... I believe we buy electrical power from France and we are also committed in buying oil and other resources from other countries too... look, IF we built our own nuclear power station's and we can then be self sufficient... and we have ton's of coal here too.

As for the old windmill's, yes we had them BUT, not in their thousands... blighting our, once, beautiful landscape's!

Either way, whatever I think is of no consequence... it's all about the financial side of it and they don't, hahaha, work when it snows!

Luv ya all... 'av a nice day too!

-------------------------
Tom.... (The TERMINATOR).

handyTRADESMAN

Castle Builders
 11 March 2019 11:40 AM
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rogerbryant

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This is quite an ineresting graph even though it is in German:

http://www.mensch-natur-bw.de/...SxPsc-XcLo_tg3SCkV_A8

It shows the installed onshore wind capacity in Germany from 2014 to 2018 (top red line and light blue area) compared to the power delivered to the grid (blue spikes and yellow average bars). Although the installed capacity has increased significantly the delivered power shows a much smaller increase.

There could be several reasons for this:

1. The output from the older turbines is reducing as they age and breakdown more frequently.
2. The 'best' locations have already been taken and the wind characteristics at the new sites are not so good.
3. The power allowed into the grid is being limited by stability concerns.

What other reasons could there be?

Does this show a practical limit to the amount of wind power considering that Germany has been installing turbines almost without regard to the cost?

Best regards

Roger
 11 March 2019 02:15 PM
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broadgage

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There is a limit to UK windpower, though we are far from reaching that limit at present.

The first limit is that of availability, we are far from that limit at present, we have the best wind availability in Europe, both onshore and offshore.

The second limit is how much wind generation the grid can accept.
Probably twice the present figure.
At times of high wind and low demand, I have observed 10GW from wind, 5Gw from nuclear, 5Gw from gas, and 2Gw of imports.

That suggests that we could have managed 20Gw from wind, Zero imports, zero from gas, and nuclear down to 3Gw.
Gas burning capacity is going to be needed for many years, but we could generate more from wind, and consider gas for peak load and calm weather rather than for base load.

Nuclear will soon be down to about 3Gw due to closures.
Doubts exist as to whether Hunterston nuclear power station will be allowed to re-start due to cracks in the graphite blocks that form the core.
Two others are of a similar age and have already been life extended.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Light Years Ahead.

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