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Topic Title: Bootlace ferrule crimpee
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Created On: 14 January 2019 09:06 AM
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 14 January 2019 09:06 AM
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ben22

Posts: 50
Joined: 26 March 2013

I'm in the market for a new crimp tool, which ones do you guys recommend if any? I'm also looking to potentially get a set of crimps to go alongside? Which colour scheme is generally accepted? The German or French scheme?
 14 January 2019 09:50 AM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
Joined: 03 October 2005

Oiginally I bought the Knipex one and it wasn't cheap, I paid around £120 for it.
It depends on where you work, if your industry needs you to use tools with a certificate of compliance like RoHS or others then it will cost you an arm and a leg, if you want one for general electrical installation work then there are plenty on Ebay and other places, I bought another with 2400 crimps for around £40 and it is fine and fit for purpose, I only bought it mainly for the crimps.
Whether German or French colours that does not matter red is red and blue is blue etc in any language, if you want to go full English there are grey, brown and black crimps around.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 14 January 2019 10:10 AM
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wallywombat

Posts: 96
Joined: 19 October 2018

Originally posted by: rocknroll
Whether German or French colours that does not matter red is red and blue is blue etc in any language, if you want to go full English there are grey, brown and black crimps around.
Regards

The crimp colours refer to the size of cable they hold. There are two standards, French and German, with different sets of colours. General BS7671 work doesn't require any particular colour standard.
 14 January 2019 10:34 AM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
Joined: 03 October 2005

The crimp colours refer to the size of cable they hold.


I am fully aware of that, you can also get some that are colour coded with a double band, I have some in my control panels.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 14 January 2019 01:24 PM
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geoffsd

Posts: 2342
Joined: 15 June 2010

It depends whether you are talking about proper crimps and crimpers - i.e. the correct size for the core and hexagonal crimpers, or

the rubbish generally sold for domestic installations where the crimp might be stated as suitable for several core sizes and is merely a squash flat crimp for which you may as well use a hammer.

Also, crimps should not be used on solid cores.
 14 January 2019 01:33 PM
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paulskyrme

Posts: 1364
Joined: 12 February 2003

I like the Weidmuller bootlace ferrule cimpers, I have a few, look up PZ4, PZ6Roto, PZ16 & PZ50, depending on how large you want to go.
I was brought up on German (Ford), but my main local wholesaler is French (Schneider distributor).
It doesn't really matter as long as the right size is used as they are colour coded on size as has been said.
Wire colours and alphanumeric idents are better for identification of function.
 14 January 2019 01:57 PM
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dustydazzler

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Joined: 19 January 2016

Check EBay , loads of stuff on there
 14 January 2019 01:58 PM
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perspicacious

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Why bother crimping the ferrule? A major company building panels doesn't and relies on the screw doing the job. Whilst I don't like it, I'm actually struggling to find a Reg to support my dislike!
If you quote good workmanship/manf instructions, please post a link to the instructions that accompany/published for the crimps!
I can only think of the torque setting being different, but tenuous to say the least.
Any suggestions?!

Regards

BOD
 14 January 2019 02:36 PM
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tattyinengland

Posts: 1053
Joined: 23 November 2006

Hi Bod

I can virtually guarantee that if the bootlace ferrules are in a control panel and you give each wire a firm pull - somewhere in that panel, one of the wires will pop out and the ferrule will stay in.

Phone up the installer and tell them to come back and re-terminate this cable before you continue your inspection of the installation and then do this a a few times - and I'm willing to bet they'll never fail to use a ferrule crimper again.

(It happened to me on the very first control panel I ever build in a workshop; when the professional control panel builder was on holiday on my first day on the job and I was given a challenge to build this 2m x 3m motor control panel with alan bradely control / input and output cards and telemetry and three variable speed drives.) - My first ever control panel! I could follow a drawing quite fine but had never used ferrules before. I had to re-build the panel on site out in the cold. I never again failed to use a ferrule crimp and now use ferrules regularly but don't do controls muchanymore - Its a very closed market when you run a ltd company.
 14 January 2019 02:37 PM
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tattyinengland

Posts: 1053
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Sorry Ben22 - I dont know what make my ferrule crimps are but they're really good with blue handles and I got them from RS components I think. Very vague and not very helpful I'm afraid - if I remember when I get home - I'll post it.........
 14 January 2019 04:47 PM
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ben22

Posts: 50
Joined: 26 March 2013

Geoff's, yes I mean the proper hexagonal crimpers, in my current role wether they are certified or notmwlnt matter too much however I will most likely go for a certified pair as I prefer to use decent gear especially when it comes to crimping etc
 14 January 2019 04:50 PM
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AJJewsbury

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Also, crimps should not be used on solid cores.

Unless they're deigned for such use - which some are - e.g. solistrand.
- Andy.
 14 January 2019 04:55 PM
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paulskyrme

Posts: 1364
Joined: 12 February 2003

Originally posted by: perspicacious

Why bother crimping the ferrule? A major company building panels doesn't and relies on the screw doing the job. Whilst I don't like it, I'm actually struggling to find a Reg to support my dislike!

If you quote good workmanship/manf instructions, please post a link to the instructions that accompany/published for the crimps!

I can only think of the torque setting being different, but tenuous to say the least.

Any suggestions?!



Regards



BOD


Bod,
I would say that if this is a control panel, for machinery then you won't find anything in BS 7671 that is relevant apart from 110.2 (xi) which excludes them from BS 7671 and puts them in EN 60204 territory.
I would then quote them 4.7 from EN 60204-1 & ask them if they have approval from the crimp OEM that is a suitable method of fitting them. Which we know it isnt, so they are stuffed, the crimp OEM will require it to be crimped with a suitable tool.
I normally get Weidmuller crimps from the wholesaler, so Weidmuller tooling.

BS EN 60204-1:2006 AC:2010
4.7 Installation
Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the electrical equipment supplier's
instructions.
 14 January 2019 11:50 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

These proper bootlace ferrule crimps, are they used in both cage and screw terminals?
 15 January 2019 01:11 AM
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mapj1

Posts: 12039
Joined: 22 July 2004

By those of us who don't like our flex ends to get frayed in the terminals, yes. Sometimes 2 ferrules side by side in one cage, depends on the size and what is being wired.
I have used them to make a rather neater job of the blue commando plugs when the flex is a bit inadequate.

Also used with the more aggressive large sized lever wagos, again to stop the end getting chopped off.

Sometimes handy to group more than one wire, when you want the through loop unbroken, even if the connection at some mid point is removed.

My crimper for the small sizes (less than 1mmsq, remember I do electronics) is the CK ratchet model, and is not a hex crimp, but puts in single row of rat bites on the flat of a depressed "D" profile. Never had any issues with it, and on the odd one that has been sectioned (*), the post compression filling factor is excellent even after the full set of tracked vehicle vibration tests.... I use a hex for the larger sizes, and a hand pumped hydraulic hex jaws model for the really large ones.

* after tests to Def Stan 35 part 5
ftp://ftp.iks-jena.de/pub/mitarb/lutz/standards/dstan/00/035/05000300.pdf

For those not familiar, I can't find the tracked vehicle test on youtube, but something military and electronic is being shaken to the nearest equivalent US army standard here Normally some hours on each of 3 axes, or to first failure, whichever occurs first.

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 15 January 2019 at 01:34 AM by mapj1
 15 January 2019 10:48 AM
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paulskyrme

Posts: 1364
Joined: 12 February 2003

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

These proper bootlace ferrule crimps, are they used in both cage and screw terminals?


Yep, by me & those who work with me they are.
Any class 5 or 6 stranded conductor gets a bootlace on it's end under a screwed terminal of any kind.
Maybe not a Wago lever terminal, but it depends, they can be used in them, & I prefer them to be used.
Even in BS1363 plugs, and yes, it can be done with some thought.
 15 January 2019 01:15 PM
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sparkingchip

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 15 January 2019 02:04 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 12039
Joined: 22 July 2004

Some nice pics of what I assume is a German or Austrian factory board. It is a pity the Dehn thing was not also sprung terminals - see how much time is lost with the screwdriver, and see how few other items in the board are screw terminals of any kind.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 15 January 2019 02:58 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

I believe it is a three phase domestic board with 35-amp main switches from viewing other Dehn videos.

In other videos Thomas the electrician made the point that he was installing cables with crimps one end only where they are going to be in screw terminals and not on the ends that are going to be terminated in cages.

What, if any, are the advantages of using a cord end ferrule on a conductor that is terminated in a cage terminal?
 15 January 2019 06:54 PM
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paulskyrme

Posts: 1364
Joined: 12 February 2003

It ensures that all the strands are suitably restrained into the terminal.
IET » Wiring and the regulations » Bootlace ferrule crimpee

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