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Topic Title: electric cars
Topic Summary: just on the news breaking...ban of diesel and petrol by 2040
Created On: 26 July 2017 01:36 pm
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
 electric cars   - psychicwarrior - 26 July 2017 01:36 pm  
 electric cars   - MWalker86 - 26 July 2017 02:41 pm  
 electric cars   - geoffsd - 26 July 2017 03:05 pm  
 electric cars   - MWalker86 - 26 July 2017 03:20 pm  
 electric cars   - davezawadi - 26 July 2017 03:28 pm  
 electric cars   - psychicwarrior - 26 July 2017 03:05 pm  
 electric cars   - geoffsd - 26 July 2017 03:32 pm  
 electric cars   - MWalker86 - 26 July 2017 03:42 pm  
 electric cars   - davezawadi - 26 July 2017 04:29 pm  
 electric cars   - rocknroll - 26 July 2017 04:57 pm  
 electric cars   - mapj1 - 26 July 2017 07:00 pm  
 electric cars   - MWalker86 - 26 July 2017 08:03 pm  
 electric cars   - hertzal123 - 26 July 2017 08:56 pm  
 electric cars   - psychicwarrior - 26 July 2017 09:17 pm  
 electric cars   - mapj1 - 26 July 2017 11:38 pm  
 electric cars   - ebee - 27 July 2017 12:42 am  
 electric cars   - davezawadi - 27 July 2017 09:30 am  
 electric cars   - mapj1 - 27 July 2017 09:51 am  
 electric cars   - davezawadi - 27 July 2017 02:13 pm  
 electric cars   - geoffsd - 27 July 2017 02:53 pm  
 electric cars   - sparkingchip - 29 July 2017 09:23 pm  
 electric cars   - sparkingchip - 29 July 2017 09:36 pm  
 electric cars   - davezawadi - 30 July 2017 08:06 am  
 electric cars   - broadgage - 30 July 2017 09:44 am  
 electric cars   - sparkingchip - 29 July 2017 09:26 pm  
 electric cars   - antric2 - 31 July 2017 09:25 pm  
 electric cars   - potential - 01 August 2017 09:13 am  
 electric cars   - ectophile - 01 August 2017 01:15 pm  
 electric cars   - davezawadi - 01 August 2017 01:32 pm  
 electric cars   - AJJewsbury - 27 July 2017 04:14 pm  
 electric cars   - davezawadi - 27 July 2017 04:29 pm  
 electric cars   - sparkingchip - 27 July 2017 05:23 pm  
 electric cars   - mapj1 - 28 July 2017 12:06 am  
 electric cars   - arg - 28 July 2017 10:17 am  
 electric cars   - Fm - 28 July 2017 10:24 am  
 electric cars   - davezawadi - 28 July 2017 12:13 pm  
 electric cars   - ebee - 28 July 2017 12:35 pm  
 electric cars   - arg - 28 July 2017 04:15 pm  
 electric cars   - Zs - 28 July 2017 07:58 pm  
 electric cars   - rocknroll - 28 July 2017 10:07 pm  
 electric cars   - davezawadi - 29 July 2017 09:45 am  
 electric cars   - sparkingchip - 28 July 2017 01:46 pm  
 electric cars   - psychicwarrior - 29 July 2017 10:24 am  
 electric cars   - AJJewsbury - 29 July 2017 08:45 pm  
 electric cars   - AJJewsbury - 30 July 2017 10:11 am  
 electric cars   - davezawadi - 31 July 2017 07:49 am  
 electric cars   - AJJewsbury - 31 July 2017 09:54 am  
 electric cars   - psychicwarrior - 31 July 2017 10:33 am  
 electric cars   - psychicwarrior - 01 August 2017 01:08 pm  
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 29 July 2017 09:45 am
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davezawadi

Posts: 4259
Joined: 26 June 2002

Well Arg, you seem happy with this situation, but I am not. So your car will do 200 miles of average conditions, and then you might find a charging slot if it is not a holiday day, no wind and overcast? Really you do believe in hype don't you? Your average 16kWh needs extreme central control over every charging point in the country, running all generating plant at full capacity continuously, and nothing in reserve when a breakdown looses 2GW off the grid. In other words you would be happy to have a vehicle which you could never depend on because sometimes it would not be charged? We have about 40GW of conventional plant available and this is already fully committed, because you need at least 2GW of rotating standby as wind and solar are not reliable, and never can be. This number can only get higher as more "renewables" come on line, and CCGT plants should be a tax on the windmills and solar not a charge on your bill. The entire economics is so distorted by subsidies that sense has gone out of the window. On a number of occasions the grid has already been close to collapse triggering load shedding of customers with backup generation at huge cost. In fact I consulted for a company who generally ran 4MW of diesel daily because they could do so at a very significant profit, which is not a good car replacement is it? I get the additional 10GW from my previous calculation to provide enough charging come what may, day or night, and to deal with this 20 miles a day limit - and limit it is. Some days I drive 400 miles, some nothing, but this cannot be averaged can it? I still need 400 miles of daily range, with total reliability. I certainly could not deal with having my car go flat 10 miles from the destination, have it towed to a charging point, visit my customer, wait to charge to full capacity, nearly get home and then walk, could I? Saying that I could buy a 1 hour charge Tesla also is useless because the grid could not cope with a million of us at the same time all trying to fast charge our cars, whereas the petrol stations can without any problem at all. Controlling this demand by price is clearly unworkable, as is suggesting public transport which is already totally crowded and very expensive. I really object to having to stand for hours whilst paying some train company a small fortune to travel, and trains probably do not go where I want anyway, or be willing to carry large boxes of kit, so I still need a car at the ends and an entirely different way to conduct my business, all of which adds to costs and prices.

As I am trying to explain, the policy is unworkable for many reasons, from Nissan recommending only charging to 80% to get reasonable battery life (still not defined, lets have a 100,000 mile total replacement warranty) to the impossibility of funding the supply industry without gut wrenching price increases. It could be that the technology gets better by 2040, it probably will, but not to the extent required and the right price point, which this policy requires.

This is a serious national economic problem which is very difficult to solve. An economy without free availability of every bit of transport required to make it work is in deep trouble. A simple strike on a rail line cast business a fortune when its workers cannot get to work. A breakdown or accident causes havoc for a huge number of people. Imagine how much worse this could be if you have flat electric cars stopped every few miles along all the roads, and this is not a case of pouring a can of fuel into the tank. Whilst electric cars sound wonderful, they have serious shortcomings and huge costs which proponents are trying to force onto society as a whole. This is not right, they should be taxed at a rate to pay for their infrastructure just like liquid fueled vehicles, which pay several times their actual costs.

I does appear to me that the Government (or any other party) is amazingly economically ignorant, in that they make none of the cost / benefit analyses which are part of our life. The HS2 at £60 Billion is a prime example, it cannot possibly return a reasonable rate on this expenditure, and appears to be a political project to make the North feel better, although it will take a small fraction off present journey times. It would be much better to build another motorway, North-South in as straight a line as possible with 4-5 lanes each way, avoiding London and other cities completely to make a proper economic difference, at probably a similar cost and much quicker build time. You cannot reduce road traffic by building railways (lots of reasons for that) and it is road traffic which is our problem. Perhaps the electric car is simply a way to reduce road traffic, well that is a good conspiracy theory anyway?

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
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