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Topic Title: Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please
Topic Summary: Fire Detection Cert
Created On: 19 March 2015 11:05 AM
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 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - MrP - 19 March 2015 11:05 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Delbot321 - 19 March 2015 12:12 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Jaymack - 19 March 2015 12:45 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - spinlondon - 19 March 2015 12:47 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Parsley - 19 March 2015 12:58 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - MrP - 19 March 2015 01:32 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - rocknroll - 19 March 2015 01:51 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - MrP - 19 March 2015 02:30 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - rocknroll - 19 March 2015 02:50 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - RB1981 - 20 March 2015 12:40 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - rocknroll - 20 March 2015 12:56 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 20 March 2015 04:50 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Jaymack - 20 March 2015 06:38 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 20 March 2015 08:59 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - MrP - 21 March 2015 01:01 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 21 March 2015 04:53 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Parsley - 19 March 2015 03:14 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Jaymack - 19 March 2015 05:16 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Jaymack - 19 March 2015 05:59 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - aligarjon - 19 March 2015 06:04 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 19 March 2015 06:12 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 19 March 2015 06:03 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Jaymack - 19 March 2015 06:20 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 19 March 2015 06:30 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Jaymack - 19 March 2015 06:49 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - jcm256 - 19 March 2015 08:23 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - rocknroll - 19 March 2015 08:37 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 19 March 2015 09:27 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Jaymack - 20 March 2015 04:10 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - MrP - 20 March 2015 04:23 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Jaymack - 20 March 2015 04:29 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Jaymack - 20 March 2015 04:04 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Parsley - 20 March 2015 08:30 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - mapj1 - 19 March 2015 11:50 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 20 March 2015 09:20 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Jaymack - 20 March 2015 09:38 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Imhidingunderyourfloor - 22 March 2015 12:40 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 22 March 2015 08:42 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - MrP - 22 March 2015 09:25 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 22 March 2015 02:13 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - Imhidingunderyourfloor - 22 March 2015 11:00 AM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 22 March 2015 02:23 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 22 March 2015 02:29 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - rocknroll - 22 March 2015 04:46 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - leckie - 22 March 2015 05:00 PM  
 Guys needs a little assistance with an NICEIC cert please   - MrP - 23 March 2015 04:56 AM  
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 19 March 2015 11:05 AM
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MrP

Posts: 968
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When installing a standard domestic fire detection system a certificate of compliance is submitted.
On the NICEIC Certificate of "Design, Installation and Commissioning of A fire Alarm system of Grade B., C,D, or F in Domestic Premises".
In the commissioning section is confirmation that a heat test has been carried out
How do you carry out a heat test?

MrP Day One
 19 March 2015 12:12 PM
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Delbot321

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Not sure this will help you directly but when we do commercial systems we have a unit that goes over the head and has a small heater and fan (bit like a hair dryer) built in to it. It's the same size and shape as the one we use on the end of an extendable smoke pole so it's inter-changeable.

I've always used this - not sure what you do if you don't have one of these though. I'm sure someone will have an interesting suggestion.
 19 March 2015 12:45 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: MrP
How do you carry out a heat test?

Rub 2 dry sticks together? I use a hair drier .......... not too close though.

Regards
 19 March 2015 12:47 PM
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spinlondon

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Are the sectors heat or smoke?
 19 March 2015 12:58 PM
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Parsley

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What does the manufacturer suggest?
Is it actually required for domestic heat detectors?
Regards
 19 March 2015 01:32 PM
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MrP

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I'm reviewing certification that was issued re my daughters new house so not got manufacturers data just a copy of the cert issued by the contractor system grade is D and system category is LD3
The cert states Commissioning A tick in the box indicates the inspection or test has been performed and the results are satisfactory.
The heat box has been ticked
I wouldn't have thought a hair dryer would produce enough heat to verify operation I would suspect as the detector is in the kitchen it's a rate of rise detector which again how do you verify compliance

It's a few years since I got involved with any fire alarm malarkey but can't remember performing any tests on heat detectors.
The domestic guys must come across this situation what is the method of test if any?

MrPStill day one
 19 March 2015 01:51 PM
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rocknroll

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Commissioning A tick in the box indicates the inspection or test has been performed and the results are satisfactory.
The heat box has been ticked

LD3 in a domestic suggests a smoke in each circulation space and possibly a heat in the kitchen, in this situation to commission these all you are required to do is press the test button then fill in the Pt 6 smoke alarm certificate.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 19 March 2015 02:30 PM
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MrP

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In the Commissioning section there is a box for 'Test button checked' and this has been verified.
But the contractor has also verified that he has undertaken a "Heat Test"Can't see how he can verify unless someone tells me different as stated the domestic guys must come across this all the time.

The contractor has ticked LD3 my understanding is that LD3 applies to existing buildings. The property is new build and therefore LD2 should apply.
Advice please.

MrP Shutting up shop day 2 tomorrow
 19 March 2015 02:50 PM
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rocknroll

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FIRE DETECTION AND ALARM SYSTEM IN DWELLINGS INSTALLATION AND COMMISIONING CERTIFICATE

Dug out a NICEIC certificate and generally in that box I see a N/A which is obviously part of the software, and you are correct it should technically be category LD2.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 20 March 2015 12:40 PM
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RB1981

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Originally posted by: MrP

The contractor has ticked LD3 my understanding is that LD3 applies to existing buildings. The property is new build and therefore LD2 should apply.


My understanding was that new domestic installations in Ireland, both north and south (to BS 5839-6 and IS 3218 respectively), and in Scotland required an LD2 system.

However I thought LD3 was still permitted in England and Wales (but I may be wrong).

-------------------------
Walsh Electrical Services
http://www.walshelectrical.ie/
RECI REC & NICEIC Approved Contractor
 20 March 2015 12:56 PM
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rocknroll

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Originally posted by: RB1981

Originally posted by: MrP

The contractor has ticked LD3 my understanding is that LD3 applies to existing buildings. The property is new build and therefore LD2 should apply.


My understanding was that new domestic installations in Ireland, both north and south (to BS 5839-6 and IS 3218 respectively), and in Scotland required an LD2 system.

However I thought LD3 was still permitted in England and Wales (but I may be wrong).


LD1 - Alarms in all circulation spaces that form part of escape routes and all areas where a fire might start, but not bathrooms, shower rooms or toilets
LD2 - Alarms in all circulation spaces that form part of escape routes and rooms or areas that present a high fire risk
LD3 - Alarms in circulation spaces that form part of escape routes

LD3 is still very much alive if there is a detector in each circulation space, hall and landing, but when you add another in the kitchen or anywhere that presents a high risk then it becomes LD2.

I was simply trying to help Mr P with his query. I don't feel like a charlatan or a cowboy.


The trouble with forums they become an unreal world, a preachers paradise if you like, what happens in the real world and is practiced is often the opposite.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 20 March 2015 04:50 PM
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leckie

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Jaymack, which make detectors do you use? Do you, or have you used Aico? If so what model or type do you fit? Let's assume hall, landing, living room and a kitchen. So a fairly typical Grade D, LD2 system.
 20 March 2015 06:38 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: leckie
Jaymack, which make detectors do you use? Do you, or have you used Aico? If so what model or type do you fit? Let's assume hall, landing, living room and a kitchen. So a fairly typical Grade D, LD2 system.

I use a make that doesn't prohibit smoke and heat testing, using such a smoke can: -.
http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/309...l-weight-aero-300.html
 20 March 2015 08:59 PM
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leckie

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So you won't tell then
 21 March 2015 01:01 PM
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MrP

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Further to my post I managed to track down the manufacturer of the automatic fire detection Ei electrical
And I have it via mail that the Ei detectors should not be subjected to a simulated site heat or smoke test.
There you have it right from the horses mouth all the charlatans and cowgirls will be able to sleep easy.
The specialist contractor has issued a fire cert stating that he has subjected the automatic fire devices to a simulated site test. I will ask the contractor to change the devices or produce a letter from the manufacturer stating that the devices are not contaminated or the integrity compromised

MrPstill day three tomorrow is four
 21 March 2015 04:53 PM
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leckie

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Ei are actually Aico.

As I have been saying, that's exactly their recommendations.

One of the reasons I was trying to get the type and model numbers was to discuss whether the correct types were being installed in the correct areas. I rarely see optical smokes fitted because they are more expensive. But BS5839:6 advises that these are the type to be fitted to halls and landings, not ionisation.

Aico categorically state that the test button feature tests everything on an optical detector except the ability of the detector to let smoke in. However they state that as the detectors are factory tested, this is not concern. For ongoing maintenance of optical sensors, cleaning is part of the recommended routine. It's in the user instruction leaflet.

Regarding actual smoke testing, they advise that if the client absolutely insists on this, then for an ionisation detector an aerosol type can be used. But not the type posted by Jaymack. It must be a type with a shroud cover that fits over the detector head. This means less of the product is required to trigger the alarm to reduce the danger of contaminating the sensor. But any testing with any smoke is against their recommendations. Optical detectors would require more of the product to enter the detector due to the nature of their design in order to trigger. This is why it's a bit of a no no for them. They are very likely to be contaminated. And smoke sticks are not to be used at all. So thats no smoke testing to hall, landings, living rooms if they are off the kitchen, etc.

The heat detectors again do not require heat testing. Sick advise that damage can occur to the detector. The thermistor triggers the alarm at 58 degree. Unless the hair dryer is calibrated to 58 degrees damage can occur.

I have nothing against putting model numbers on a certificate, the actual type, eg optical, might be more useful. But this is not a requirement of BS5839:6. Taking note of manufacturers instructions is.
 19 March 2015 03:14 PM
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Parsley

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In the Aico electrical contractors handy book 2nd edition, there is a note on page 104. I'm not going to type it all out. It basically states that the smoke/heat test isn't required just press the test button on the smoke/heat devices. They also recommend commenting in the variation section stating manufactures instructions have been followed and physical smoke heat testing has not been carried out.

Hope that helps Mr P

Regards
 19 March 2015 05:16 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: Parsley
In the Aico electrical contractors handy book 2nd edition, there is a note on page 104. I'm not going to type it all out. It basically states that the smoke/heat test isn't required just press the test button on the smoke/heat devices. They also recommend commenting in the variation section stating manufactures instructions have been followed and physical smoke heat testing has not been carried out.

Then a certificate shouldn't be issued IMO if a smoke or heat test has not been made, that's cowboy territory. Smoke canisters or candles for a smoke test, and a hair dryer for a heat test are simple enough and inexpensive, then you can complete the certificate with confidence, you won't feel like a charlatan, your customers can sleep in confidence, and so can you!. Would you tick another safety item such as an RCD without a test?.

Regards
 19 March 2015 05:59 PM
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Jaymack

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An email with link is just in to me. What is the definition of functioning in this AICO article?, by pressing a button like a customer, or proof testing as a conscientious contractor?

You know it makes sense!

http://www.aico.co.uk/scottish...Y,39HZ4,EIFKBV,BOKNT,1
 19 March 2015 06:04 PM
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aligarjon

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i was told on an assessment 3 or 4 years ago the certificate was not required on a domestic installation. i have not done one since or have i been asked for one. the only test required was the test button.

Gary

-------------------------
Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 19 March 2015 06:12 PM
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leckie

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Well there is a model certificate in BS5836:6. So it's up to the installer to decide whether it's a requirement or not.

But be careful. Building Regs and BS5839:6 conflict. A job that complies with Approved Document B may not comply with BS5839:6. Many large builders stick to the minimum laid out in the Building Regs. So if you do issue a BS5839:6 model certificate, it might not be correct.
 19 March 2015 06:03 PM
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leckie

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It's not a requirement for Aico smoke/heat alarms. That is the manufacturers instructions. They don't want you squirting a can into the smoke heads. So in fact if you do squirt stuff into them, you could be damaging the gear and it might not work in the case of a fire. Check with Aico and check with the NICEIC if you are in it, they told me the same. The test button is a calibrated check.

Or you might want to return to your jobs and replace all the detectors you have damaged.

On the certificate you put N/A, and explain that is manufacturers instruction as has already been explained.
 19 March 2015 06:20 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: leckie
It's not a requirement for Aico smoke/heat alarms. That is the manufacturers instructions. They don't want you squirting a can into the smoke heads. So in fact if you do squirt stuff into them, you could be damaging the gear and it might not work in the case of a fire. Check with Aico and check with the NICEIC if you are in it, they told me the same. The test button is a calibrated check.

Calibrated in what sense?, the finger pressure needed to cause operation? These companies won't support you if it goes pear shaped. A push button test is simply a mechanical test, and doesn't prove the sensing capability and operation. I use the Tysoft fire certificates which require the model number of the detector used.

Or you might want to return to your jobs and replace all the detectors you have damaged.

Don't be silly!

Regards
 19 March 2015 06:30 PM
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leckie

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Crack on then. Ignore the manufacturers instructions. Or give them a ring.

Do you mean Tysoft require the model number of the test instrument you used? Since when is a software house in charge of what goes onto a certificate?
 19 March 2015 06:49 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: leckie
Crack on then. Ignore the manufacturers instructions. Or give them a ring.

I value my own assessment of the requirements, and the need to prove that there is a functioning unit when I leave.

Do you mean Tysoft require the model number of the test instrument you used? Since when is a software house in charge of what goes onto a certificate?

They are simply following those who are responsible enough, to recognise that full testing with a proper certificated test is required!, as they do with including the number of points in their EICR's.

Further, are you one of those who differentiate between a domestic and a commercial property, as far as the test requirements are concerned, as some do.

Regards
 19 March 2015 08:23 PM
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jcm256

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Can be tested using a portable cord and lamp holder furnished with a 60 or 75 W incandescent lamp. The lamp is held within a few inches of the detector and the heat from the lamp should cause the unit to operate after a few seconds.
Above is for a bimetal type fixed-temperature. These units operate on the principle of heat-expansion of dissimilar metals to energise the alarm circuit; they return to their normal position after cooling ready for another operation
Now another type operates when a metal with a low melting point. This type detector is one-operation device. Maintenance at least two out of every hundred should be sent to a testing laboratory each year. To cut short don't think this type is applicable to domestic.
Obviously I am reading from a book how to test these things, but where you would get a 60 W incandescent lamp these days. Maybe rough service ones still on sale.
Regards
jcm
 19 March 2015 08:37 PM
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rocknroll

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I do remember a paper somewhere that suggested that if a detector was forced to operate under simulated fire conditions then the same rules applied that the detector should be changed as it would be after a real fire, I don't think the smoke from a candle would help much after clogging up the membrane, that's why there is a test facility.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 19 March 2015 09:27 PM
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leckie

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And that is the nub of it RnR. Aico reps told me that a smoke test from a can would invalidate the warranty on one of their smoke detectors. So if that's what people want to do, they should realise that perhaps the safety system would no longer be under warranty.

Edited: 20 March 2015 at 04:13 PM by leckie
 20 March 2015 04:10 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: leckie
And that is the nub of it RnR. Aico reps told me that a smoke test from a can would invalidate the warranty on one of their smoke detectors. So if that's what people want to do, they should realise that perhaps. The safety system would no longer be under warranty.

Just one? As the man said ......... get it in writing!, but then change your supplier.

Regards
 20 March 2015 04:23 AM
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MrP

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Thanks for all the replies so far guys

The model and serial number is indicated as "Budgie"
I have tried googgling it to no avail anyone got manufactories literature

"Budgie Mains powered domestic smoke and heat detectors"

Do you subject the devices to simulated conditions or just press the button what does "Budgie" say

MrP day two
 20 March 2015 04:29 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: MrP
what does "Budgie" say

Cheap, cheap? Not a make known to me.

Regards
 20 March 2015 04:04 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: rocknroll
I do remember a paper somewhere that suggested that if a detector was forced to operate under simulated fire conditions then the same rules applied that the detector should be changed as it would be after a real fire, I don't think the smoke from a candle would help much after clogging up the membrane, that's why there is a test facility. [IMG][/IMG]

Get that in writing but ....... avoid the make. As already said - burnt toast is an effective method of testing a smoke alarm. I inherited a house one time with one in a kitchen, I eventually changed it after the continual nuisance. Using that logic from an undetermined source would require changing a smoke alarm after every incident .......... not that JP would do it anyway. , it's difficult enough to get him or her to change the batteries, or the unit at 10 year intervals.

I get most of my material delivered, and live test all such items on receipt, using the accepted proprietary means in this case, with the recordable model number! Separation of the men from the boys, comes to mind.

Regards
 20 March 2015 08:30 AM
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Parsley

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Originally posted by: Jaymack

Originally posted by: Parsley

In the Aico electrical contractors handy book 2nd edition, there is a note on page 104. I'm not going to type it all out. It basically states that the smoke/heat test isn't required just press the test button on the smoke/heat devices. They also recommend commenting in the variation section stating manufactures instructions have been followed and physical smoke heat testing has not been carried out.


Then a certificate shouldn't be issued IMO if a smoke or heat test has not been made, that's cowboy territory. Smoke canisters or candles for a smoke test, and a hair dryer for a heat test are simple enough and inexpensive, then you can complete the certificate with confidence, you won't feel like a charlatan, your customers can sleep in confidence, and so can you!. Would you tick another safety item such as an RCD without a test?.



Regards


I was simply trying to help Mr P with his query. I don't feel like a charlatan or a cowboy. I suggest you check with your domestic detector/heat supplier and get written confirmation from them that specific smoke canister/heat detector tests are required and won't contaminate the device or invalidate the warranty. Aico's advise is it isn't required just push the test the button. If you also look at Kidde's website you won't find any reference to carrying smoke or heat test in their literature either.http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Te...ck/Man_Slick_Inst.pdf

Charlatan wtf!

Regards
 19 March 2015 11:50 PM
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mapj1

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Surely a piece of toast will test the smoke system - its how the family here test mine at home.

Haven't got heat det to look at, but to design something where the built in test does not exercise the whole sensor chain would be silly. Actually I don't see why it could not take 1 second off every 15 mins and perform a self test without the button, just have an extra timed circuit to emulate a detection event, and then report it self faulty in some special chirping code if the built in test didn't raise an alarm signal.
There is no need with modern electronics to wait for a rather unreliable human to press a test button.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 20 March 2015 09:20 AM
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leckie

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Originally posted by: mapj1

Surely a piece of toast will test the smoke system - its how the family here test mine at home.



Haven't got heat det to look at, but to design something where the built in test does not exercise the whole sensor chain would be silly. Actually I don't see why it could not take 1 second off every 15 mins and perform a self test without the button, just have an extra timed circuit to emulate a detection event, and then report it self faulty in some special chirping code if the built in test didn't raise an alarm signal.

There is no need with modern electronics to wait for a rather unreliable human to press a test button.


In fact that is what Aico detectors do. They self test every 40seconds. The push button is a manual test and is THE only test approved by the manufacturer.

And Jaymack
This is in writing as Parsley has said, and the rep explaining this to me was a senior training representative. So if I was you I would check that you haven't ruined the detectors that you have installed by contaminating the chamber. You had best speak to your supplier asap.

Men and boys eh

What make do you fit? I will check out the testing required for you if you want.

Edited: 20 March 2015 at 09:50 AM by leckie
 20 March 2015 09:38 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: leckie

In fact that is what Aico detectors do. They self test every 40seconds. The push button is a manual test and is THE only test approved by the manufacturer.

So they give out a puff of smoke, a partial eclipse or a blast of heat then. Magic!

Regards
 22 March 2015 12:40 AM
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Imhidingunderyourfloor

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Just seeking a bit more info on this issue. I don't do much fire alarm testing so usually have to refer to BS5839 rather than my grey matter. Can't see my copy at the moment as it's stuck on my pc that has died. I had been under the impression that pt1 specifically required functional testing by use of a product such as an enclosed aerosol (eg no climb smoke can). That the use of test buttons was not sufficient.
I see some heated different views on this above and so wonder if I am getting mixed up with a different requirement under Pt6?
I am aware that Aico recommend only use of their test button but am more interested in what BS 5839 has to say on it.
Anyone got the regs on this, or is it the case as with 7671 that manufacturers guidelines 'top trump'?

Btw what's wrong with the Charlattans?
 22 March 2015 08:42 AM
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leckie

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The equment used on a part 1 system is completely different and the detectors do not have a test button incorporated.

There are also different tests and inspections required at different time periods.

You test detectors heads with the approved equipment as you described. You check the output of sounders with a decibel meter. Manual call points are operated with test keys and you check the panel and its functions as per the manufacturers instructions.
 22 March 2015 09:25 AM
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MrP

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Joined: 24 March 2006

Hi Leckie

Reading your post I may have read this wrong surly you use a sound metre on domestic type detection as well as on the full fat type of system.


MrP Day four got beer lined up for tonights match
 22 March 2015 02:13 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4705
Joined: 21 November 2008

Originally posted by: MrP

Hi Leckie



Reading your post I may have read this wrong surly you use a sound metre on domestic type detection as well as on the full fat type of system.





MrP[IMG][/IMG] Day four got beer lined up for tonights match


BS part 6 is not as specific about sound levels as part 1. For all apart from category A systems, the installation is designed on placement of the alarm in the correct places. The alarm unit is required to output 85db at 3m by the product BS. For example, Part 6 requires the alarm to be sited within 3m of any bedroom and there is a recommendation that the DB level is 85db at the bedroom door with the door open. Like most things it's down to risk assessment and good design.

On my last NICEIC assessment I prepared various test equipment for The assessor to check. I had a sound meter and he mentioned is general discussion that this was a requirement for Part 1 systems, not part 6. Although there is a box to tick on some certificate issued by software companies and trade bodies, it's not in the BS part 6 model certificate. Having said that, I've got a sound meter and it's nice to confirm sound level at different part of the building in a new installation as well, but I don't think its an actual requirement.

So if you do a design with new equipment the levels can be designed in, a bit like light level for a BS5266 emergency lighting design. But if you are inspecting an older installation it should be confirmed that the sound levels are sufficient.

Edited: 22 March 2015 at 02:19 PM by leckie
 22 March 2015 11:00 AM
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Imhidingunderyourfloor

Posts: 51
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I am aware of basic testing and differences. I just wanted to know if Pt6 has the same requirement as Pt1 of testing not relying on a mechanical or electronic function such as a test button.

You do get magnetic test functions on pt1 equipment - but these aren't sufficient to demonstrate that products of combustion can reach the sensors.
 22 March 2015 02:23 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4705
Joined: 21 November 2008

Originally posted by: Imhidingunderyourfloor

I am aware of basic testing and differences. I just wanted to know if Pt6 has the same requirement as Pt1 of testing not relying on a mechanical or electronic function such as a test button.



You do get magnetic test functions on pt1 equipment - but these aren't sufficient to demonstrate that products of combustion can reach the sensors.


Part 6 does ask for confirmation of the operation of the detector. If you read back through the posts I have quoted what one manufacturer, Aico, recommends. This is that the test button only are used and that a variation is recorded on the certificate.
 22 March 2015 02:29 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4705
Joined: 21 November 2008

Incidentally, if you speak to manufacturers of part 1 system smoke detectors, they don't like indiscriminate spraying of aerosol smoke into their detectors either. They recommend canned smoke with the containment enclosure to avoid contamination.
 22 March 2015 04:46 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
Joined: 03 October 2005

For your information this is the most popular certificate we receive and is in full compliance with the Building Regulations.

http://www.kiddefyrnetics.co.u...PT6%202013%20Cert.pdf

regards

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"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
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"Oh! The drama of it all."
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"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
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 22 March 2015 05:00 PM
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leckie

Posts: 4705
Joined: 21 November 2008

Absolutely correct. This is a BS5829 pt6 model form with just a manufacturers logo on it. NICEIC, software companies, etc, feel obliged to add bits and pieces I reckon.
 23 March 2015 04:56 AM
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MrP

Posts: 968
Joined: 24 March 2006

Guys thank you very much for the replies the forum does work

MrPDay five cracking win with a couple of beers
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