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Topic Title: Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.
Topic Summary:
Created On: 01 October 2014 03:20 PM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - 24Hour - 01 October 2014 03:20 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 01 October 2014 03:42 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 01 October 2014 04:09 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mikejumper - 01 October 2014 04:46 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 01 October 2014 05:01 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - rocknroll - 01 October 2014 05:15 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 01 October 2014 04:52 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 01 October 2014 08:06 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 01 October 2014 04:56 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Polyamide66 - 08 November 2014 12:03 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Polyamide66 - 08 November 2014 12:04 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Polyamide66 - 08 November 2014 12:05 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 01 October 2014 05:11 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - 24Hour - 01 October 2014 05:13 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 01 October 2014 05:26 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - rocknroll - 01 October 2014 05:55 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - aligarjon - 01 October 2014 06:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 01 October 2014 06:08 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - rocknroll - 01 October 2014 06:12 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - whjohnson - 01 October 2014 06:35 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 01 October 2014 06:49 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - whjohnson - 01 October 2014 06:59 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 01 October 2014 07:10 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 01 October 2014 07:18 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - rocknroll - 01 October 2014 07:39 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 01 October 2014 08:13 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 17 January 2015 08:36 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - stateit - 01 October 2014 08:15 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 01 October 2014 08:28 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 01 October 2014 11:08 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 01 October 2014 08:33 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - largelunchbox - 15 October 2014 05:37 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - impvan - 01 October 2014 08:47 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - peteTLM - 01 October 2014 09:01 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 01 October 2014 09:01 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - peteTLM - 01 October 2014 09:04 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 01 October 2014 09:25 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 01 October 2014 09:34 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 01 October 2014 09:38 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 01 October 2014 09:58 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - DOUGIE1000 - 01 October 2014 11:41 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Phillron - 01 October 2014 11:49 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - DOUGIE1000 - 02 October 2014 12:29 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 02 October 2014 07:29 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 02 October 2014 08:15 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 23 October 2014 06:16 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 23 October 2014 07:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 23 October 2014 07:19 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 23 October 2014 07:40 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 23 October 2014 08:11 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 23 October 2014 09:51 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 23 October 2014 10:04 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 23 October 2014 10:45 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 24 October 2014 02:56 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 24 October 2014 03:15 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 24 October 2014 03:29 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 01 November 2014 08:51 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 01 November 2014 10:23 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 01 November 2014 01:31 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 01 November 2014 01:44 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 07 November 2014 09:19 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 24 October 2014 06:53 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 23 October 2014 07:27 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 08 November 2014 05:37 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 08 November 2014 05:46 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 09 November 2014 03:24 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 02 October 2014 09:32 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jcm256 - 13 October 2014 08:26 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - bartonp - 15 October 2014 10:19 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 14 October 2014 08:38 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 17 October 2014 08:45 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 18 October 2014 08:42 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - impvan - 20 October 2014 10:25 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jcm256 - 20 October 2014 05:51 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 21 October 2014 06:13 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 19 October 2014 01:28 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 16 October 2014 12:43 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - 24Hour - 16 October 2014 01:11 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 16 October 2014 02:33 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 16 October 2014 02:45 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 16 October 2014 10:30 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 16 October 2014 10:58 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 18 October 2014 09:01 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 19 October 2014 08:45 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 19 October 2014 09:13 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 19 October 2014 10:48 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 20 October 2014 09:56 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 20 October 2014 06:04 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 20 October 2014 10:13 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 21 October 2014 06:56 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 21 October 2014 07:00 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - elecyvie - 21 October 2014 07:09 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 21 October 2014 07:18 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 21 October 2014 07:27 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 21 October 2014 07:26 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 21 October 2014 07:30 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 21 October 2014 07:39 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 21 October 2014 08:14 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 21 October 2014 08:25 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - UKPN - 21 October 2014 09:06 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - peteTLM - 21 October 2014 09:15 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 21 October 2014 09:29 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - UKPN - 21 October 2014 09:52 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - slittle - 21 October 2014 10:18 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - UKPN - 21 October 2014 10:23 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 21 October 2014 10:49 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 21 October 2014 10:59 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 22 October 2014 11:22 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 22 October 2014 11:56 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 22 October 2014 12:09 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 22 October 2014 12:19 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 22 October 2014 02:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 23 October 2014 09:01 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 23 October 2014 10:15 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 23 October 2014 10:47 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 23 October 2014 11:30 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 24 October 2014 06:25 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 24 October 2014 07:39 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 24 October 2014 07:44 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 24 October 2014 09:15 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 24 October 2014 09:25 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 23 October 2014 11:58 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - donglebat - 24 October 2014 07:33 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 24 October 2014 09:23 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 24 October 2014 02:16 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - KFH - 24 October 2014 12:49 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 24 October 2014 01:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 24 October 2014 01:25 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 24 October 2014 04:11 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 24 October 2014 04:22 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 24 October 2014 06:00 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 24 October 2014 06:39 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 24 October 2014 07:48 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 25 October 2014 02:07 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 24 October 2014 02:14 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 24 October 2014 02:26 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 24 October 2014 02:48 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 24 October 2014 03:45 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 24 October 2014 04:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 24 October 2014 06:37 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 25 October 2014 07:49 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 25 October 2014 08:58 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 26 October 2014 06:51 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 26 October 2014 09:39 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 26 October 2014 06:47 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 26 October 2014 08:39 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 26 October 2014 09:09 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 28 October 2014 08:57 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 28 October 2014 09:58 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 29 October 2014 10:59 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 29 October 2014 11:09 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 26 October 2014 10:17 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 26 October 2014 11:59 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 28 October 2014 09:14 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 28 October 2014 09:41 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - chrisbradley - 28 October 2014 12:43 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 28 October 2014 03:09 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 29 October 2014 04:15 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 29 October 2014 08:12 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 29 October 2014 04:50 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 29 October 2014 07:37 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - rocknroll - 29 October 2014 08:04 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 29 October 2014 10:31 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 29 October 2014 11:40 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 30 October 2014 06:46 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 30 October 2014 07:26 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 30 October 2014 09:42 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Angram - 30 October 2014 10:34 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 30 October 2014 12:06 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 30 October 2014 01:18 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 30 October 2014 01:18 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 31 October 2014 12:35 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 31 October 2014 08:39 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 01 November 2014 10:01 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 07 November 2014 10:38 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 07 November 2014 12:01 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 07 November 2014 07:47 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 07 November 2014 08:28 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - spinlondon - 07 November 2014 09:12 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 07 November 2014 09:54 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 07 November 2014 09:57 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 07 November 2014 10:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 07 November 2014 10:12 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 08 November 2014 12:21 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 07 November 2014 10:29 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Polyamide66 - 07 November 2014 11:52 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Polyamide66 - 07 November 2014 11:53 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Polyamide66 - 07 November 2014 11:57 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 08 November 2014 09:43 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 08 November 2014 05:57 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Polyamide66 - 07 November 2014 11:47 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Polyamide66 - 07 November 2014 11:47 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - spinlondon - 07 November 2014 11:59 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 08 November 2014 12:15 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 08 November 2014 09:27 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 08 November 2014 09:31 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 08 November 2014 09:53 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 08 November 2014 10:05 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 08 November 2014 10:20 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 08 November 2014 10:46 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 08 November 2014 10:59 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 08 November 2014 11:36 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Polyamide66 - 08 November 2014 09:09 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 08 November 2014 09:21 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 08 November 2014 09:22 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 09 November 2014 09:41 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 08 November 2014 11:40 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 08 November 2014 10:16 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 08 November 2014 10:28 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 08 November 2014 10:34 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 08 November 2014 10:41 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 08 November 2014 12:11 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 08 November 2014 12:14 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 08 November 2014 12:41 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 08 November 2014 12:56 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 08 November 2014 01:40 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 08 November 2014 01:43 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 08 November 2014 01:53 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 08 November 2014 04:25 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 08 November 2014 05:27 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 08 November 2014 05:57 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 08 November 2014 09:42 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 08 November 2014 10:17 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 08 November 2014 10:41 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 08 November 2014 10:56 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 08 November 2014 11:08 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 09 November 2014 02:28 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 08 November 2014 06:09 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 08 November 2014 06:19 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 08 November 2014 06:22 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - TimJWatts - 09 November 2014 01:54 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - spinlondon - 08 November 2014 07:40 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - bowmandj - 08 November 2014 08:51 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 08 November 2014 09:24 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 08 November 2014 10:32 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 08 November 2014 10:37 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 08 November 2014 10:52 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 09 November 2014 02:28 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 09 November 2014 02:34 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 09 November 2014 02:40 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 09 November 2014 02:47 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 09 November 2014 03:12 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 09 November 2014 03:22 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 09 November 2014 05:31 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 09 November 2014 06:07 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 09 November 2014 08:40 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 09 November 2014 09:38 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 09 November 2014 02:49 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 09 November 2014 02:54 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 09 November 2014 03:10 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 09 November 2014 03:15 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 09 November 2014 03:16 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Polyamide66 - 09 November 2014 06:56 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 09 November 2014 07:41 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 09 November 2014 03:29 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jcm256 - 09 November 2014 03:37 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 09 November 2014 04:07 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 09 November 2014 05:00 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 09 November 2014 10:24 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 09 November 2014 03:44 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 09 November 2014 06:34 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 09 November 2014 07:34 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 09 November 2014 07:47 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - dickllewellyn - 09 November 2014 09:49 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 09 November 2014 10:42 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 09 November 2014 10:45 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 09 November 2014 10:48 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 10 November 2014 12:03 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 10 November 2014 09:53 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 10 November 2014 12:48 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 10 November 2014 01:09 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 10 November 2014 06:54 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 10 November 2014 08:58 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 10 November 2014 09:19 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 10 November 2014 11:53 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 10 November 2014 02:46 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 10 November 2014 03:25 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - KFH - 10 November 2014 02:45 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 10 November 2014 02:57 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 10 November 2014 03:13 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jcm256 - 10 November 2014 03:23 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 10 November 2014 03:39 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 10 November 2014 04:50 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 10 November 2014 07:18 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 10 November 2014 07:23 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 10 November 2014 03:23 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 10 November 2014 07:31 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 11 November 2014 01:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 11 November 2014 02:25 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - stuartsmiles - 11 November 2014 09:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 11 November 2014 09:11 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - stuartsmiles - 11 November 2014 09:18 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 22 November 2014 05:14 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - stuartsmiles - 11 November 2014 09:45 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 11 November 2014 10:48 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - stuartsmiles - 11 November 2014 11:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 11 November 2014 11:28 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 21 November 2014 08:16 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 21 November 2014 09:24 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 12 November 2014 08:36 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 12 November 2014 02:31 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 21 November 2014 12:33 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 22 November 2014 09:54 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 22 November 2014 11:28 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 22 November 2014 04:55 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - daveparry1 - 22 November 2014 05:00 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - 24Hour - 22 November 2014 05:41 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jcm256 - 22 November 2014 07:37 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 23 November 2014 03:38 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - peteTLM - 23 November 2014 08:01 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - IronFreely - 23 November 2014 09:21 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 23 November 2014 09:28 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 23 November 2014 09:29 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 24 November 2014 04:46 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 24 November 2014 10:26 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 24 November 2014 04:54 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 24 November 2014 05:05 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 24 November 2014 05:24 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 24 November 2014 07:19 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - peteTLM - 24 November 2014 09:28 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 24 November 2014 09:41 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - peteTLM - 24 November 2014 11:04 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 24 November 2014 11:30 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 24 November 2014 11:37 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 25 November 2014 05:42 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 25 November 2014 06:47 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 25 November 2014 10:12 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 25 November 2014 11:14 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 25 November 2014 05:04 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - bowmandj - 25 November 2014 11:18 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 25 November 2014 02:30 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 25 November 2014 11:59 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 25 November 2014 01:27 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 25 November 2014 05:57 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - 24Hour - 25 November 2014 07:58 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 26 November 2014 06:56 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 26 November 2014 09:47 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - dickllewellyn - 26 November 2014 10:12 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - bowmandj - 26 November 2014 10:29 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 27 November 2014 09:52 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Crazycolours - 29 November 2014 07:54 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - CopperRod - 04 December 2014 01:27 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jcm256 - 04 December 2014 07:19 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 04 December 2014 09:44 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 04 December 2014 11:51 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jcm256 - 05 December 2014 12:09 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 05 December 2014 12:15 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - dickllewellyn - 04 December 2014 09:04 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 05 December 2014 05:50 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 05 December 2014 06:31 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - dickllewellyn - 05 December 2014 06:34 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 05 December 2014 06:41 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - dickllewellyn - 05 December 2014 07:21 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 05 December 2014 09:39 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 06 December 2014 05:30 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - BillI - 06 December 2014 07:33 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 11 December 2014 10:52 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jcm256 - 11 December 2014 06:22 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 11 December 2014 06:26 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 11 December 2014 06:44 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 11 December 2014 06:58 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 11 December 2014 07:47 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 11 December 2014 08:51 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 11 December 2014 09:47 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 15 December 2014 04:40 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 15 December 2014 09:36 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 15 December 2014 10:23 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 15 December 2014 10:34 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - dickllewellyn - 16 December 2014 08:12 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 16 December 2014 10:21 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 16 December 2014 06:08 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 16 December 2014 09:33 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - alanblaby - 16 December 2014 10:43 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 16 December 2014 11:24 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 16 December 2014 11:44 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 16 December 2014 11:52 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 17 December 2014 09:34 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - BillI - 17 December 2014 06:55 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - dickllewellyn - 17 December 2014 08:09 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - alanblaby - 17 December 2014 08:46 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 17 December 2014 09:12 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 17 December 2014 09:17 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 17 December 2014 09:58 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 17 December 2014 12:10 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - SandyBoiler - 19 December 2014 05:43 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 17 December 2014 04:26 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - dickllewellyn - 17 December 2014 06:22 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 17 December 2014 07:29 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 17 December 2014 07:48 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 17 December 2014 10:43 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 18 December 2014 02:34 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 18 December 2014 02:27 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 18 December 2014 02:24 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 18 December 2014 04:32 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 18 December 2014 04:51 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 18 December 2014 05:09 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 18 December 2014 05:26 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 18 December 2014 05:49 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 18 December 2014 06:37 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - SandyBoiler - 18 December 2014 07:10 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jcm256 - 18 December 2014 07:28 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 18 December 2014 08:05 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 18 December 2014 07:45 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 18 December 2014 08:12 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 18 December 2014 08:30 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 18 December 2014 10:35 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - gkenyon - 19 December 2014 09:33 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 19 December 2014 10:12 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - CopperRod - 19 December 2014 06:28 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 19 December 2014 08:53 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 19 December 2014 10:28 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - ebee - 19 December 2014 10:53 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 19 December 2014 02:51 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - bowmandj - 19 December 2014 03:07 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 19 December 2014 05:56 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - SandyBoiler - 19 December 2014 06:12 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 20 December 2014 08:48 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - SandyBoiler - 20 December 2014 11:18 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - bowmandj - 20 December 2014 11:41 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - bowmandj - 20 December 2014 11:59 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 20 December 2014 02:30 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 20 December 2014 05:26 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - SandyBoiler - 20 December 2014 07:36 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 21 December 2014 11:05 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - SandyBoiler - 21 December 2014 03:06 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - rogerbryant - 22 December 2014 03:52 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - bowmandj - 20 December 2014 07:11 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 21 December 2014 11:59 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 22 December 2014 04:09 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 22 December 2014 04:22 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 22 December 2014 08:50 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 22 December 2014 09:00 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 22 December 2014 09:50 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - peteTLM - 22 December 2014 07:11 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 22 December 2014 11:06 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 23 December 2014 09:49 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Phillron - 23 December 2014 10:41 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 23 December 2014 09:53 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - FizzleBang - 23 December 2014 10:03 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 23 December 2014 10:11 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 24 December 2014 08:27 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Phillron - 24 December 2014 05:21 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 02 January 2015 09:44 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Brilec - 03 January 2015 11:38 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 03 January 2015 12:20 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - spinlondon - 03 January 2015 12:46 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Brilec - 03 January 2015 01:48 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Brilec - 03 January 2015 01:48 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - alanblaby - 03 January 2015 01:55 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Brilec - 03 January 2015 03:19 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - alancapon - 03 January 2015 03:35 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 03 January 2015 07:41 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - paulskyrme - 03 January 2015 08:01 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 04 January 2015 03:34 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 04 January 2015 03:43 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - BillI - 04 January 2015 05:43 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 04 January 2015 06:15 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Boolean - 04 January 2015 10:12 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - potential - 04 January 2015 11:01 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - BillI - 04 January 2015 11:21 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Boolean - 04 January 2015 11:51 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 04 January 2015 03:20 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - weirdbeard - 04 January 2015 03:59 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 04 January 2015 04:54 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 04 January 2015 09:07 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 04 January 2015 10:32 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - daveparry1 - 04 January 2015 12:22 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 04 January 2015 12:56 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Boolean - 04 January 2015 12:35 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 04 January 2015 12:54 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Boolean - 04 January 2015 01:10 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 04 January 2015 04:24 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 05 January 2015 03:00 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 04 January 2015 11:55 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - alanblaby - 05 January 2015 07:49 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - potential - 05 January 2015 09:26 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - rocknroll - 05 January 2015 02:54 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - dickllewellyn - 05 January 2015 03:34 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 05 January 2015 04:44 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 05 January 2015 06:58 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Paradigm - 05 January 2015 07:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 05 January 2015 08:50 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jason1969 - 16 January 2015 11:36 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jason1969 - 16 January 2015 11:50 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 17 January 2015 10:38 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 17 January 2015 11:05 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jason1969 - 17 January 2015 12:12 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 17 January 2015 12:49 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 17 January 2015 04:40 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 17 January 2015 06:35 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jason1969 - 17 January 2015 05:31 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - OMS - 17 January 2015 05:34 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - michaelbrett - 17 January 2015 05:50 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jason1969 - 17 January 2015 10:10 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - BillI - 19 January 2015 11:09 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jason1969 - 19 January 2015 02:28 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 19 January 2015 01:21 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - BillI - 19 January 2015 05:25 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jason1969 - 20 January 2015 05:21 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 20 January 2015 07:06 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 20 January 2015 08:59 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - BillI - 20 January 2015 09:31 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Phillron - 20 January 2015 10:56 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 21 January 2015 08:29 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 27 January 2015 10:44 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 27 January 2015 09:33 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 27 January 2015 10:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Bhilly - 28 January 2015 08:47 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - potential - 28 January 2015 09:33 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 28 January 2015 09:41 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 28 January 2015 01:27 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Jaymack - 28 January 2015 06:51 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 24 February 2015 09:58 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 28 January 2015 09:45 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - nexsuperne - 28 January 2015 02:00 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 28 January 2015 04:30 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 28 January 2015 05:02 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 28 January 2015 05:13 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 28 January 2015 05:32 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 28 January 2015 05:49 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 28 January 2015 05:57 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 25 February 2015 10:11 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - sparkingchip - 28 February 2015 01:02 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 28 February 2015 10:38 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 28 February 2015 10:51 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GeoffBlackwell - 01 March 2015 04:23 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 11 January 2016 09:13 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - John Peckham - 25 February 2015 10:25 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - psychicwarrior - 25 February 2015 01:29 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 25 February 2015 02:10 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 25 February 2015 02:33 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 27 February 2015 07:39 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 27 February 2015 07:57 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 27 February 2015 09:21 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 27 February 2015 09:38 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - psychicwarrior - 27 February 2015 12:02 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - hifly - 27 February 2015 02:25 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 27 February 2015 06:21 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 27 February 2015 06:28 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - dg66 - 27 February 2015 09:02 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 28 February 2015 07:52 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - phantom9 - 28 February 2015 09:34 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - davezawadi - 28 February 2015 12:44 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoomup - 28 February 2015 08:21 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - AJJewsbury - 28 February 2015 09:27 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 01 March 2015 10:33 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mistercohen - 01 March 2015 12:01 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Zoro - 01 March 2015 07:14 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - napitprofessional - 02 March 2015 10:20 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - jonnyblagwind - 10 January 2016 04:57 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GLMelectrical - 10 January 2016 07:40 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 10 January 2016 09:21 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - daveparry1 - 10 January 2016 05:37 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Spark68 - 10 January 2016 05:42 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - leckie - 10 January 2016 05:48 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Spark68 - 10 January 2016 06:00 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - potential - 11 January 2016 11:43 AM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - mapj1 - 11 January 2016 02:27 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - GLMelectrical - 11 January 2016 07:03 PM  
 Have I gone mad or did i just hear that right ? No plastic fuseboards.   - Weirdbeard2 - 27 March 2019 04:32 PM  
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 01 October 2014 03:20 PM
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24Hour

Posts: 277
Joined: 06 April 2006

Amendment 3 says that all domestic consumer units are to be all ferrous metallic ? from 1/1/2016.
I can see the logic,but for the joe blogs or a cowboy installer this surely will reduce safety not make it better , imagine all those rough as a badgers edges and no grommets etc.

Mr cable has been rehearsing !.

http://www.3rdamendment.co.uk/...P,2U7ZR,6VOB1L,ABEE7,1

-------------------------
Yes i do do 24/7 everyday of the FLAMIN year.
 01 October 2014 03:42 PM
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Bhilly

Posts: 51
Joined: 17 June 2013

The alleged reason is to improve electrical fire safety due to concerns about the number of plastic consumer units going up in flames. Won't actually stop the fires, just contain them for longer...have a look at a recent Forum discussion re. consumer fire in new house - lots of differing opinions

Cheers
 01 October 2014 04:09 PM
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John Peckham

Posts: 9097
Joined: 23 April 2005

No you might have heard that but it is wrong. AMD 3 will require non combustible boards in domestic premises and says for example metal. There is a delay period introducing this reg. no doubt to clear the shelves of combustible boards to the unsuspecting public. I feel sure the. Manufacturers will be producing non combustible plastic boards very soon.

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 01 October 2014 04:46 PM
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mikejumper

Posts: 2810
Joined: 14 December 2006

Originally posted by: John Peckham
I feel sure the. Manufacturers will be producing non combustible plastic boards very soon.

Does that mean that the plastic boards available now have no particular fire retardent properties?
If so. I'm surprised.
 01 October 2014 05:01 PM
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Zoomup

Posts: 6117
Joined: 20 February 2014

Originally posted by: John Peckham

No you might have heard that but it is wrong. AMD 3 will require non combustible boards in domestic premises and says for example metal. There is a delay period introducing this reg. no doubt to clear the shelves of combustible boards to the unsuspecting public. I feel sure the. Manufacturers will be producing non combustible plastic boards very soon.


Non combustible insulated boards like the old respected solid Wylex 604 IVY. Now, they would not catch fire easily, and if they did get very hot they smelled like fish as a warning. I loved 'em.

Z.
 01 October 2014 05:15 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
Joined: 03 October 2005

As I pointed out on the last thread the majority of the main manufacturers boards satisfy the various standards and requirements of the Building Regulations for safety, fire, accessibility etc with regard to components, and once again my comment if you are fitting cheap boards for whatever reason you are in breach of the Building Regulations.

Most of the evidence surrounding consumer unit fires suggest that in the event of a overload or fault the fire originates outside the oxygen starved unit where the cables are, soft plastic, dirt, dust and other flammable materials such as wood then migrates to the consumer unit, whilst it is true that metal will not suffer in this sense at least you can wire brush and paint the unit with hammerite saving your customer some costs.

Definition of non-combustible:
BS 476: Part 4: 1970 Non-combustibility test for materials.
This test classifies materials as either 'non-combustible' or 'combustible'. It is the most stringent standard for the fire performance of materials and gives a measure of the heat and flames generated by the material under standard heating conditions. Non-combustible materials can be used without restriction anywhere in a building. Their use ensures that hazards due to smoke and toxic gases are "minimised" and that the fabric of a building will not make a contribution to a fire.


regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 01 October 2014 04:52 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 17795
Joined: 13 August 2003

It seems a odd it's even being raised as a BS 7671 issue - surely the requirement for performance of an particular item of equipment should be dealt with by the equipment standard e.g. BS EN 60439 / BS EN 61439.

I can see it turning into a complete can of worms if they did go down the mandatory steel clad route though - it'd create huge problems for TT systems (you couldn't just put an up-front RCD in a separate insulating enclosure, as that itself would be classed as 'switchgear' and so subject to the same requirement), and then what about situations that require IP rated/corrosion proof enclosures - how many steel ones have you seen that satisfy that?

Won't actually stop the fires, just contain them for longer

Although without the plastic case, there would be a lot less fuel for the fire, so the fire should be a lot smaller, and on a TN system allow ADS to remove the energy source sooner.

I can't see the manufacturers being too happy about having all their expensive injection moulding equipment being turned into scrap overnight and will surely lobby hard against it. (Judging by the pro-RCD changes of recent years, CU manufacturers do seem to have a voice!)

- Andy.
 01 October 2014 08:06 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: AJJewsbury

It seems a odd it's even being raised as a BS 7671 issue - surely the requirement for performance of an particular item of equipment should be dealt with by the equipment standard e.g. BS EN 60439 / BS EN 61439.

- Andy.


Seconded - JPEL need to use their influence to pressure the manufacturers into compliance with existing standards (recently revised I might add) - not put nonsense regs into UK only bits of BS 7671

Now then - how may switchgear manufacturers have representative seats on JPEL 64 and other IET committees ?

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 01 October 2014 04:56 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 17795
Joined: 13 August 2003

Does that mean that the plastic boards available now have no particular fire retardent properties?
If so. I'm surprised.

Some certainly seem not to - I think Andy (sparkingchip) did a few experiments with a cigarette lighter with dramatic results. London Fire Brigade seem to have some similar evidence.
- Andy.
 08 November 2014 12:03 AM
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Polyamide66

Posts: 12
Joined: 07 November 2014

all decent consumer units are polyamide 66. Non combustible.
Look up polyamide 66.
 08 November 2014 12:04 AM
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Polyamide66

Posts: 12
Joined: 07 November 2014

all decent consumer units are polyamide 66. Non combustible.
Look up polyamide 66.
 08 November 2014 12:05 AM
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Polyamide66

Posts: 12
Joined: 07 November 2014

all decent consumer units are polyamide 66. Non combustible.
Look up polyamide 66.
 01 October 2014 05:11 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

Has the new revision of BS7671 gone to the printers yet?

Seeing how much it costs I hope there isn't going to be an addendum to sellotape into it shortly after publication once the final decisions have been made!

Andy
 01 October 2014 05:13 PM
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24Hour

Posts: 277
Joined: 06 April 2006

Now there is a very good point, what about TT installs , Mr cable and his buddy say metal such as sheet steel, that's not going to work on a TT is it.
If Qvs get on the bandwagon of Chinese metal boards, they will be like there flush knockout boxes , like kitchen foil !.

-------------------------
Yes i do do 24/7 everyday of the FLAMIN year.
 01 October 2014 05:26 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

I don't think that the Building Research Establishment, London Fire Brigade and Electrical Safety council aka Electrical Safety First would agree with the rather broad sweeping statements that you are coming out with.

The report said that when tested some of the consumer units tested over powered the fume extraction systems in the test lab and had to be put out with fire extinguishers thus aborting the test, though a conclusion had been reached.

I have a Controlgear Direct consumer unit in my garage made of self extinguishing plastic upfront of my installation, what precisely do you have upfront of your installation at home, rocknroll?

Andy
 01 October 2014 05:55 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
Joined: 03 October 2005

I have two supplies one in a garage some distance away and the other in a utility room, they are both MK and fitted by a non-registered electrician of many years standing and fitted correctly.

I am confident along with 99% of the population that I will not come home one day or in many cases one weekend and find a pile of ashes where the house once stood because of a rare consumer unit fire.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 01 October 2014 06:03 PM
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aligarjon

Posts: 4053
Joined: 09 September 2005

The Crabtree CU enclosures are much sturdier than most although I haven't fitted one for a long time.

Gary

-------------------------
Specialised Subject. The Bleedin Obvious. John Cleese
 01 October 2014 06:08 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

I deem both of those makes of enclosures highly flammable.

Andy
 01 October 2014 06:12 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
Joined: 03 October 2005

You can frighten some of the people some of the time, but you cant frighten all of the people all of the time to part with their hard earned cash.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 01 October 2014 06:35 PM
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whjohnson

Posts: 938
Joined: 24 January 2009

Watch the IET's Mark Coles give an explanation on youtube.
It's on the IET Channel.


I watched it yesterday, and the first thing which struck me was the fact that today's consumer units are deliberately designed by beancounters to be as cheap and as nasty as they can get away with.

Look at the facts.
A couple of years ago, you could get a CU with all-brass terminal blocks complete with brass screws.
There were big chunky pieces of copper present for other main parts.

What do we have now? Tiny narrow brass alloy terminal blocks for the neutral & earth, complete with cadmium-coated cheap n' nasty steel screws with multipoint heads. Two dissimilar metals with two different temp coefficients of expansion into which is inserted and secured, a third metal of copper.

Guess what? Stuff begins to fail. Cause? "Oh!" say the manufacturers; " You cannot have tightened them up correctly!"

Oh! So its nowt to do with poor materials and design is it?

New Rule Time then -

" Let's transfer the blame onto the end-user by insisting that they all go out and blow £200 on a fancy but next to useless torque screwdriver, otherwise their insurance policies and warranties will be invalid. Doesn't stop the fires, but hey ho, it'll not be us paying out."

Time to revise the standards for CU manufacture and to be prepared to pay a bit more for a better constructed CU manufactured to, and which exceeds, rather than only just complies with a MINIMUM standard.

We need those big beefy same-metal terminals back.

We need carcasses which are rigid and robust, and which don't bend in a breeze.

Oh, and before I go, have you seen how little copper there is inside a modern mcb or rcd these days?

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Edited: 01 October 2014 at 06:41 PM by whjohnson
 01 October 2014 06:49 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

I don't think everyone grasps the fact that you cannot judge the fire rating of a plastic consumer unit based on its price or how established the make is.

Yes, a correctly installed consumer unit shouldn't in theory start a fire that results in the plastic enclosure burning.

But then remember the Voltinum MCB recall of Crabtree, Wylex and Volex MCB's sometime back. A faulty MCB resulted in electricians going all over the place trying to recover other devices from the same batch.

It really didn't help did it that these devices were installed in what appears from carrying out a little testing with a cigarette lighter, readily combustible plastic enclosures, did it?

Andy
 01 October 2014 06:59 PM
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whjohnson

Posts: 938
Joined: 24 January 2009

There are 2 kinds of regulation.

Here's the IET youtube video explaining amd 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uV-OoV7vTY&list=UUn8dC4EdRfJo5sH9A7zu2yw

The 100 and the 200 series.

One is EU & UK and is most likely derived from the damned EU.

The other is UK-only, a good example is the unique UK Ring Final.

This consumer unit one is, I think, another UK only reg.

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 01 October 2014 07:10 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

The draft I read had the new regulation 421.1.200 requiring consumer units to be fire rated either being made of steel or plastic that passes a 960 degree centigrade glow test.

I don't want to see steel as the only option for domestic consumer units and similar equipment such as main switches, I sure plasctic has a place in it all.

Andy
 01 October 2014 07:18 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

Here are some figures for you, explain the increase.

In 2012/4 253 London Fire Brigade recorded fires where a consumer unit was identified as the source of ignition.

Number of fires

2005/06 - 27
2006/07 - 28
2007/08 - 33
2008/09 - 21
2009/10 54
2010/11 - 73
2011/12 - 71
2012/13 - 220
2013/14 - 253

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/...airs.asp#.VCxE-PldUm1

Perhaps this is one explanation, though I don't think it can be pinned down to one cause.

Deepak Sharad, category marketing manager for Residential Distribution at Schneider Electric commented, 'Following years of campaigning from the LFB and Electrical Safety First, it is great to see that this much needed regulation is receiving approval. Unfortunately, for some time now, there has been an insurgence of manufacturers creating poor quality plastic moulded units and devices which have had an impact on the recent increase of domestic fires and thus standards must be raised.'

http://www.electricalcontracti...f-manufacturer-is-key


Andy
 01 October 2014 07:39 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
Joined: 03 October 2005

As you have decided to name the LFB, at a meeting some months ago the Chief Fire Officer quoted that 90% of the fires in and around the cut-out/consumer unit are as a result of overloading and tampering, tampering has increased by many 100's of percent and is increasing every day as people are becoming more brazen in abstracting electricity, whilst most agree that some equipment standards at the moment are suspect, there are much bigger problems that will not be addressed by just some knee-jerk reaction from the IET.

regrds

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 01 October 2014 08:13 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

I agree with you that overload and tampering is a very plausible explanation.

I also agree that a knee jerk reaction that results in only steel consumer units being installed in domestic installations may not be appropriate.

It would be difficult not to name the LFB at some point in discussions as they apparently are the driving force behind the changes in regulations. It would be interesting to see if other fire brigades have matching data.

some years ago it was standard practice in some parts of Birmingham that the suppliers cut out was sealed within a earthed steel enclosure to deter would be electricity thieves, I have been told though that the policy has been for several years that these steel enclosures must be removed.

So the suppliers steel incomer enclosures come out as consumer units are replaced in steel, you know it makes sense!

Andy
 17 January 2015 08:36 PM
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Zoomup

Posts: 6117
Joined: 20 February 2014

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

I agree with you that overload and tampering is a very plausible explanation.



I also agree that a knee jerk reaction that results in only steel consumer units being installed in domestic installations may not be appropriate.



It would be difficult not to name the LFB at some point in discussions as they apparently are the driving force behind the changes in regulations. It would be interesting to see if other fire brigades have matching data.



some years ago it was standard practice in some parts of Birmingham that the suppliers cut out was sealed within a earthed steel enclosure to deter would be electricity thieves, I have been told though that the policy has been for several years that these steel enclosures must be removed.



So the suppliers steel incomer enclosures come out as consumer units are replaced in steel, you know it makes sense!



Andy


Hello Andy,
in fact metal consumer units and DIY tampering may increase shock risk even more than if insulated enclosures are used.

Metal boxes and tampering = increased danger in my book.

Bye,

Z.
 01 October 2014 08:15 PM
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stateit

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Originally posted by: rocknroll

As you have decided to name the LFB, at a meeting some months ago the Chief Fire Officer quoted that 90% of the fires in and around the cut-out/consumer unit are as a result of overloading and tampering, tampering has increased by many 100's of percent and is increasing every day as people are becoming more brazen in abstracting electricity, whilst most agree that some equipment standards at the moment are suspect, there are much bigger problems that will not be addressed by just some knee-jerk reaction from the IET.



regrds


Many 100s of % increase doesn't mean a lot without a base figure to start with...

And 'overloading and tampering' doesn't exactly split the difference between overload and tamper.

And 'between cut-out and consumer unit' hasn't exactly been quantified either.

I guess tamper/abstraction will give more rise to fire risk as there will be less control by OPD.

Statistics, eh?

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http://www.sg-electrical.com
 01 October 2014 08:28 PM
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mapj1

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Number of fires

2005/06 - 27
2006/07 - 28
2007/08 - 33
2008/09 - 21
2009/10 54
2010/11 - 73
2011/12 - 71
2012/13 - 220
2013/14 - 253


Surely that's also an effect of Part P at work improving the figures, by discouraging folk from replacing their aging CUs themselves ? no?

Joking aside, without knowing the age demographics of the offending CU, that could be all ancient wooden things with rubber wire on hot wire fuses hanging on cotton covered tails finally giving up, or it could all be ebay special offer 'best price my friend marked as 'gift', installed last week, as some are assuming, but we don't really know.
After all, the very last knockings of VIR insulation should be giving up the ghost any time about now.

In some ways anything that makes it harder to replace a CU, and keeps rotting junk in service is potentially very bad.

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regards Mike
 01 October 2014 11:08 PM
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sparkingchip

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Regards the figures:

Number of fires

2005/06 - 27
2006/07 - 28
2007/08 - 33
2008/09 - 21
2009/10 54
2010/11 - 73
2011/12 - 71
2012/13 - 220
2013/14 - 253

We also need to take into account the size of the English capital city and bear in mind it has a population far in excess of that of Scotland, hence there are rather a lot of consumer units installed within the LFB area.

Andy
 01 October 2014 08:33 PM
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sparkingchip

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We all know about it:

MCB recall

As they were supplied in 2009 it could vaguely be another possibility on the list then.

Without a detailed break down of the data from the LFB no assumptions of any kind can be made.

Andy
 15 October 2014 05:37 PM
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largelunchbox

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Here are some figures for you, explain the increase.



In 2012/4 253 London Fire Brigade recorded fires where a consumer unit was identified as the source of ignition.



Number of fires



2005/06 - 27

2006/07 - 28

2007/08 - 33

2008/09 - 21

2009/10 54

2010/11 - 73

2011/12 - 71

2012/13 - 220

2013/14 - 253



http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/...sp#.VCxE-PldUm1



Perhaps this is one explanation, though I don't think it can be pinned down to one cause.



Deepak Sharad, category marketing manager for Residential Distribution at Schneider Electric commented, 'Following years of campaigning from the LFB and Electrical Safety First, it is great to see that this much needed regulation is receiving approval. Unfortunately, for some time now, there has been an insurgence of manufacturers creating poor quality plastic moulded units and devices which have had an impact on the recent increase of domestic fires and thus standards must be raised.'



http://www.electricalcontracti...facturer-is-key





Andy


big influx of our east euro friends in 2012 to 2014
 01 October 2014 08:47 PM
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impvan

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That's quite an increase in the number of fires.

Does it match, I wonder, the increase in numbers of illicit cannabis farms?
 01 October 2014 09:01 PM
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peteTLM

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In the last 10 years ive changed maybe 3 melted consumer units in the process of thinking about starting a fire.

All of them were due to loose terminals, especially neutrals.

Probably 50pc of the meters i come across however have terminals tightened by a limp wristed mouse. Why on earth dont they tighten them up? Its usually only the small loadings encountered for the surface contact area available that have saved them.

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----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 01 October 2014 09:01 PM
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sparkingchip

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You'd smell if something was up if they started burning along with the plastic enclosures!

Andy
 01 October 2014 09:04 PM
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peteTLM

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As for the metalclad/ TT install, didnt they do years ago some sort of further internal cable enclosure to afford triple insulation to the tails before the RCD?
Never seen one in the flesh, and never seen one in a catalogue either. Id be tempted to sleeve the tails in kopex or similar internally to afford the same.

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----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 01 October 2014 09:25 PM
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sparkingchip

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Anyway I now have a different matter of concern to you folks!

Looking at the Electrical Safety First appliance recall list I saw our microwave on the list!!!!!!!!!!

It is now unplugged and standing on the floor ready for a refund or replacement.

Andy
 01 October 2014 09:34 PM
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mapj1

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We could ask about eliminating screws altogether of course, preferring instead constant spring pressure, regardless of vibration or thermal cycling, and professionally some of us have done so even on bigger stuff.

This would be about right for a consumer unit, I think.

Now those would speed up meter tail replacement.
Also, perhaps rather scarily, something similar is available as a PCB variant, with very big solder pins.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 01 October 2014 09:38 PM
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paulskyrme

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mapj1,
I was using such beats 10+ years ago on industrial machinery, and, working for the OEM, we had a global failure database, and guess what, connection failure did not rank highly!
 01 October 2014 09:58 PM
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mapj1

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I've both seen them and specced various things from the same family on a mobile genset among other kit, as being far less likely to shed screws and fall apart when things rattle about a lot, and actually I've always been impressed.

I suspect it is that German engineering thoroughness to do perfectly well what everyone else said was dangerous (read 'innovative') and should not be attempted.

I'm always amused when the news shows pictures of really hairy equipment, like medical particle colliders or enormous rotating machines, and the wiring parts in the back of the photo are clearly identifiable as being of a well known Teutonic design. If you're lucky you may get to spot an 'Achtung!' label as well - odd how its not very often British, or any other nation, like French or Italian for that matter, though to be fair they do turn up on large broadcast station kit from time to time.

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regards Mike
 01 October 2014 11:41 PM
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DOUGIE1000

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there is a few too many consumer unit manufactures that as should be selling with free fire extinguisher with every board

-------------------------
Dougie
Power Plus Electrical.co.uk

My mission is to live as long as possible......so far so good!
 01 October 2014 11:49 PM
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Phillron

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Originally posted by: DOUGIE1000

there is a few too many consumer unit manufactures that as should be selling with free fire extinguisher with every board


What!
Some have already made huge effort in the safety stakes by including a free spirit level mounted in the unit lol
 02 October 2014 12:29 AM
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DOUGIE1000

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Originally posted by: Phillron

Originally posted by: DOUGIE1000



there is a few too many consumer unit manufactures that as should be selling with free fire extinguisher with every board


What!

Some have already made huge effort in the safety stakes by including a free spirit level mounted in the unit lol



and have you tried the spirit level? talk about quality, think the bubble is printed on. Next you will telling me the new Hager boards have more space than the old Hager ones that used to have about 150mm between top of mcb and neutral busbar.

-------------------------
Dougie
Power Plus Electrical.co.uk

My mission is to live as long as possible......so far so good!
 02 October 2014 07:29 AM
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paulskyrme

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I don't fully follow the train of thought going into this regulation.

The new product standard for "consumer units", BS EN 61439-3 "Low-voltage switchgear and controlgear assemblies Part 3: Distribution boards intended to be operated by ordinary persons (DBO)".

There in is a requirement for limiting the flammability and ensuring the structural integrity and stability of the device at elevated temperatures.

Now as this is the product standard for such devices, then, surely the devices must meet the product standard, or else otherwise be tested and proven suitable by equivalent means in order to comply with the Low Voltage Directive, thus carry the CE mark, etc. and thus be legal for sale in the UK.

Ahh, just read the National Foreword for 61439. 60439 is not withdrawn until 22/03/15, the flammability etc. requirements in 60439 are lower than 61439.
Rarely read things like the Foreword, normally just the technical bits! ;(

It looks like JPEL64 are pushing the requirements of 61439 before they come into play, however, they are delaying the appplication of that particular regulation?
 02 October 2014 08:15 AM
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Bhilly

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The new Reg 421.1.200 (so UK only) will require consumer units and similar switchgear in domestic premises to be made of non-combustible material or be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure made of same.For the avoidance of doubt, non-combustible in this sense means metal. 960 degree plastic is termed "not readily combustible" and was originally included as an option in the draft reg. but was kicked to touch on the basis of evidence provided by BRE and Electrium. The manufacturers have been given additional time to sort themselves out so this won't be mandatory till 1st Jan 2016. It won't stop fires, as Charlie Pugsley from LFB is now publicly proclaiming.
 23 October 2014 06:16 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: Bhilly

The new Reg 421.1.200 (so UK only) will require consumer units and similar switchgear in domestic premises to be made of non-combustible material or be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure made of same.


Originally posted by: Hager
" This would mean that eventually all new consumer units installed in UK homes, i.e. within domestic (household) premises must have their enclosures manufactured from a non-combustible material, or be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed from a non-combustible material. This is likely to result in an increased use of metal enclosures "


Just had a thought - the dpc of ammendment 3 of the proposed reg 421.1.200 makes no reference at all to domestic or similar it just says :

"Switchgear assemblies including consumer units shall: ...... "


Any ideas where the domestic bit comes from?

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 23 October 2014 07:03 PM
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davezawadi

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Obviously Hager have forgotten the commercial sector where plastic CUs are common, as against the industrial where they are usually larger and metal. I have just emailed the BBC as this is an important news story, particularly as the IET has just sent me an email about a conference where further details will be discussed for £290! Great. I think a nice discussion on Breakfast and the Marr show would put this to bed for good. What is happening in JPEL/64 seems to be scandalous, as this change is unbelievably costly to the country. There will be no "satisfactory" EICRs for the next 10 years, which may suit some cowboys but puts the entire industry into disrepute for little benefit.

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
 23 October 2014 07:19 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: davezawadi
There will be no "satisfactory" EICRs for the next 10 years, which may suit some cowboys but puts the entire industry into disrepute for little benefit.

Why would this be so when the regulations are not retrospective?
Also, it should not be a major hiccup for the makers, giving a pressing or two, since the internals of CU's are unchanged. Steel or aluminium bodies are possibilities.

And, the use of the increased stockpile of reclaimed tin cans etc. needs to be used somewhere! Now then, how can we find an increased useage for plastic, glass and paper?

Regards
 23 October 2014 07:40 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: Jaymack

Originally posted by: davezawadi

There will be no "satisfactory" EICRs for the next 10 years, which may suit some cowboys but puts the entire industry into disrepute for little benefit.


Why would this be so when the regulations are not retrospective?



Hi jaymack, sorry to jump in front of dave, but for an EICR you have to compare the existing installation to the current regs.......not too long ago there was a code 4 - ie you could state that a non compliance was noted - where a code 3 is the minimum applicable code these days, and the principle in question is one of a fire risk it will take a brave inspector to issue a satisfactory judgement that theres no risk of fire posed by an existing 'plastic' enclosure?

-------------------------
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 23 October 2014 08:11 PM
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davezawadi

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Thanks Weirdbeard.

You are absolutely correct! Obviously Jaymack could do with a 2391 update seminar, perhaps he would like to pay me £500 for a quick hour long one.

As inspectors we issue EICRs against the current regulations and this in my view should be a C1 as allegedly this is a severe fire risk. Note that there is no account of the terminal tightness (with a torque wrench if necessary) but any combustible case is banned! Note that current plastic CUs have cases made of plastic which has flame retardants and therefore do not support combustion, but this is no longer satisfactory. The London FB say that fires are caused by the non fire supporting cases so they must go. They do not say (very important this) that fires are caused because the householders do not have EICRs every 5 years, which in my view would be the competent comment, no they say that the plastic is the problem!

I really wonder what is behind this. Have they been primed by the ESC, or their latest charity (as it happens very badly) or some other safety body with unknown credentials (but not the HSE who we know and understand) to make a stand on this? I have now contacted my MP too, because this is not normal. Something is behind these vague and unsubstantiated claims that this is a major cause of house fires, and therefore is worth perhaps £10 billion of taxpayers money. That is the cost of rebuilding perhaps 100,000 dwellings, or 25,000 mansions but is that reasonable? It is also the normally assessed value of 10,000 lives, so where are we going? Is this just a case of H&S gone mad or is there more to it?

It seems to me that this is political not engineering. What is happening? Is London undergoing another great fire from the CU? I haven't seen one yet so probably not. Clearly Engineers are not in control here, they are rational beings who work with facts, and this is so far from fact as to be farcical. You never know, I may be a modern day Samuel Pepys here!

Regards

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
 23 October 2014 09:51 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: weirdbeard
Hi jaymack, sorry to jump in front of dave, but for an EICR you have to compare the existing installation to the current regs.......not too long ago there was a code 4 - ie you could state that a non compliance was noted - where a code 3 is the minimum applicable code these days, and the principle in question is one of a fire risk it will take a brave inspector to issue a satisfactory judgement that theres no risk of fire posed by an existing 'plastic' enclosure?

So you are saying that the plastic type requires to be changed in view of the current regulations. Poppycock! Rather inspect the internals and tighten connections.

Regards
 23 October 2014 10:04 PM
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davezawadi

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That is not how it is now in England at least Jaymack.
EICRs are to the current regulations and deviations are coded C1-C3. As plastic fuse boards are now not permitted at all, this must be a C1 and "unsatisfactory" outcome so selling or insuring your house may be difficult!

-------------------------
David
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 23 October 2014 10:45 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: davezawadi
That is not how it is now in England at least Jaymack.

EICRs are to the current regulations and deviations are coded C1-C3. As plastic fuse boards are now not permitted at all, this must be a C1 and "unsatisfactory" outcome so selling or insuring your house may be difficult!

Let's wait and see what the ESC bods and others say on the matter, I doubt that this change to the regulations, is going to result in unnecessary expenditure for buyers and/or sellers; rather certify that there are no signs of distress, and tighten all screws inside D.B.'s; and add tick boxes specifically for this in reports, but maybe that's too sensible.

Regards
 24 October 2014 02:56 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: Jaymack

Originally posted by: weirdbeard

Hi jaymack, sorry to jump in front of dave, but for an EICR you have to compare the existing installation to the current regs.......not too long ago there was a code 4 - ie you could state that a non compliance was noted - where a code 3 is the minimum applicable code these days, and the principle in question is one of a fire risk it will take a brave inspector to issue a satisfactory judgement that theres no risk of fire posed by an existing 'plastic' enclosure?


So you are saying that the plastic type requires to be changed in view of the current regulations. Poppycock! Rather inspect the internals and tighten connections.



Hi jaymack, moving away from EICRs, how about installations.....not too long ago in the 16th edition an electrician could move a light switch from one side of a bedroom door to the other , these days it's pretty much taboo to do the same job without at least an RCD fused spur becoming involved, or preferably an RCBO for the whole circuit according to the guidance......will you feel comfortable signing an EIC declaring that a new circuit connected into an existing non non-ferrous ie steel, plastic enclosure, that BS7671 (as ammended) has been complied with...?

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 24 October 2014 03:15 PM
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davezawadi

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But Jaymack, we haven't even established that the fires are due to loose connections have we? So tightening the screws won't do much good if its something else, like the MCBs getting too hot. As I said, and now ask, how many of you have found burnt loose terminals where a proper fire has not started, and so the evidence is still in place.

Anything which is stated in the regs as not permitted is immediately a C1 in my book. For example undersized cables, excessive Zs above the stated limits, and all the rest. Do you really code installations as satisfactory just because they have not yet proved to be immediately dangerous? I think not.

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David
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 24 October 2014 03:29 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: davezawadi


Anything which is stated in the regs as not permitted is immediately a C1 in my book.


Hi Dave i think a C1 is a bit harsh, I agree with sparking chips earlier post, either a C3, or C2, depending on whether or not the inspector considers the existing installation to be satisfactory, or not.

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 01 November 2014 08:51 AM
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leckie

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Originally posted by: davezawadi[/i

Anything which is stated in the regs as not permitted is immediately a C1 in my book. For example undersized cables, excessive Zs above the stated limits, and all the rest. Do you really code installations as satisfactory just because they have not yet proved to be immediately dangerous? I think not.


Well you might think that undersized cables, excessive Zs values are C1, but this document does not agree!

http://www.electricalsafetyfir...t-Practice-Guide-4.pdf
 01 November 2014 10:23 AM
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davezawadi

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Hi Leckie

I do class all of those as dangerous, possibly only potentially dangerous. But this one is different and well beyond the content of this leaflet by a self proclaiming vested interest.

Bare conductors which are possibly within reach are not permitted. They are potentially dangerous, but not immediately dangerous. These should be coded as C1. These CUs have been deemed to be likely to be the cause of fires, which are potentially dangerous, but are not permitted either. An installation in a petrol station with inadequate Ex equipment is also only potentially dangerous. All of these should be coded as C1 because none of therm are permitted in Amdt3. This dangerous classification is simply a mechanism to allow often rather inadequately informed inspectors to give codings to domestic disasters such as cracked sockets, cables hanging off the walls, unearthed metal lampholders etc.

Inadequately low Zs, incorrect cables sizes etc. are serious defects with potentially serious consequences, either electric shock due to extended disconnection time or fire. The ESF have forgotten that all circuits do not have RCDs, or that overloaded cables get very hot after a period. Fires are always very serious indeed, fumes are often lethal even if someone is not burned. These seem to be considered C2 by ESF, whereas it depends on the exact circumstances, a 1.5mm cable feeding a 12kW shower (yes I have found this) is a C1, as is a Zs of 10 ohms for a ring circuit with no RCD present.

This is a toy leaflet directed at inexperienced domestic installers who dare to do a EICR. In my view it is representative of the quality of the ESF and all the other offshoots of vested interests which are bringing the industry into disrepute. It has all of the experience of a non-inspector of the inexperienced kind written all over and throughout its contents.

I am expecting the ESF to come out with a document saying that prohibited items are perfectly fine as long as they complied with a previous version of the regs. This is not the inspection standard! Prohibited items must be coded as though it were a new installation to the current regulations otherwise the whole process is flawed and redress may be available against the inspector if an incident occurs (and they do at one a day according the the fire service). As inspector you have a duty of care which you must take seriously or face prosecution under the HSAW act. Failure to realise a publicised danger, such as this, could lead to bankruptcy and prison very easily. Until there are a few test cases, you won't know but coroners keep taking a very serious attitude to cases like this and recommend prosecution. Look what has happened in one or two gas cases which are fairly similar in outcomes.

You should be aware that I think that this CU business is fully flawed, that evidence is very weak and that much more investigation by fully competent forensic engineers is required. Unfortunately we have to operate according to the regulations even if they are not to our liking, and are a knee jerk reaction to an unverified claim.

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David
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 01 November 2014 01:31 PM
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leckie

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Well I agree that the BPG's are all just guides, and different situations call for differents codes. This is rather a long thread and I have only just scanned through the various comments and opinions. I assume your position is that WHEN the new regulation is in place, and you are carrying out an EICR, that you will be giving a C1 for plastic consumers units that you find installed. So that would be nearly every dwelling in the country. Well I think we had best wait for the regulation to be put in writing in the new book and see how the industry, insurers, HSE, etc interpret the requirements before we start reaching any firm conclusions.

Regarding general codes for other items on EICR's, I think giving C1 or C2 to items should be done with great care. Claims for unnecessary cost incurred due to over zealous codes may affect PI just as much as being to lenient.
 01 November 2014 01:44 PM
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leckie

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Also, I'm not sure referring to petrol filling stations is really a fair comparison to make. The electrical inspection and testing of filling stations is covered in the "blue book" and I wouldn't imagine many contractors carrying out domestic EICR's would be carrying out Periodic Inspections to a filling station.
 07 November 2014 09:19 AM
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GeoffBlackwell

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Technical document from BEAMA

here

enjoy .

Regards

Geoff Blackwell
 24 October 2014 06:53 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: weirdbeard
it will take a brave inspector to issue a satisfactory judgement that theres no risk of fire posed by an existing 'plastic' enclosure?

Not brave, just being pragmatic in a rational way. Change a C.U. just because it's plastic, after having proved there are no signs of distress, I don't think so! If it were the case that they had to be changed in the future, what would happen to the stocks of plastic ones now; there would be increased cost implications for the consumer, not to mention the availability of metal D.B.'s! I installed a plastic jobbie a few weeks ago, now it's imminently becoming non-conforming - poppycock!

Regards
 23 October 2014 07:27 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: davezawadi

Obviously Hager have forgotten the commercial sector where plastic CUs are common, as against the industrial where they are usually larger and metal. I have just emailed the BBC as this is an important news story, particularly as the IET has just sent me an email about a conference where further details will be discussed for £290! Great. I think a nice discussion on Breakfast and the Marr show would put this to bed for good. What is happening in JPEL/64 seems to be scandalous, as this change is unbelievably costly to the country. There will be no "satisfactory" EICRs for the next 10 years, which may suit some cowboys but puts the entire industry into disrepute for little benefit.


Nice work Dave, though hagers own specialists are probably replacing 'mr J vines' many plastic consumers units with metal ones right now for marketing research

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 08 November 2014 05:37 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: weirdbeard


Just had a thought - the dpc of ammendment 3 of the proposed reg 421.1.200 makes no reference at all to domestic or similar it just says :

"Switchgear assemblies including consumer units shall: ...... "

Any ideas where the domestic bit comes from?


Hi! In answer to my own earlier question above, I found this webinar from the IET on you tube, (see from 8mins 48s for section on reg 421.1.200) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uV-OoV7vTY

-------------------------
:beer)
 08 November 2014 05:46 PM
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sparkingchip

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There was a mention of the Rosepark fire, needless to say more than it was a steel distribution board.

I think the sudden increase in reported fires was either better record keeping by the LFB or faulty components.

It is interesting to note this is a UK only regulation as apparently the rest of Europe doesn't have the same issues, maybe UK electricians need coaching by the European electricians who have come to the UK to work.

Also this discussion is apparently rather late as the new edition of the regs should be at the printers.

Andy
 09 November 2014 03:24 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: weirdbeard

Originally posted by: weirdbeard





Just had a thought - the dpc of ammendment 3 of the proposed reg 421.1.200 makes no reference at all to domestic or similar it just says :



"Switchgear assemblies including consumer units shall: ...... "



Any ideas where the domestic bit comes from?




Hi! In answer to my own earlier question above, I found this webinar from the IET on you tube, (see from 8mins 48s for section on reg 421.1.200) :



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uV-OoV7vTY


Having looked at this again, the text on screen doesn't make sense, nor match the commentary, though good work incorporating consumer units on fire both below / and or in escape routes into the script!

-------------------------
:beer)
 02 October 2014 09:32 AM
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mapj1

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If the reg writers really mean metal, then they should say so, and be very clear about which metal, (I might be able to do aluminium/magnesium alloy die casting cheaper in the far east, than stamping steel for example, in high enough volumes) and even if they do I think it will be ignored in many places, and old buildings not updated and eventually it will have to go the way of bonding in domestic kitchens after a few rounds of reg updates. We need to remember why in other bits of regulation we are taking out cast iron company cut outs, and didn't always just use mains earth for cast iron telephone kiosks, many K6 or K8 for example in rural locations.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 13 October 2014 08:26 PM
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jcm256

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Will this be another condition code fault to add for existing plastic consumer units after January 2015?
Indeed wrestling with this subject you need give plenty of thought into the impact of words could have in your report.
Jcm

Electrical times
The new regulations, which will be published in January 2015, are expected to state that all consumer units fitted in residential properties will have to be made of non-combustible material or be enclosed in a non-combustible box. The change will form part of the electrical installation regulations (BS7671) which are reviewed every three years under the BSI committee JPEL64.
 15 October 2014 10:19 AM
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bartonp

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Oh no! Even steel is combustible. Asbestos anyone?
 14 October 2014 08:38 AM
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Bhilly

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Good point. At the moment the intention is that the new reg won't come into force until 1st Jan 2016 to give the manufacturers time to sort their product range out.
 17 October 2014 08:45 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: Bhilly

Good point. At the moment the intention is that the new reg won't come into force until 1st Jan 2016 to give the manufacturers time to sort their product range out.


Hi Bhilly, if the new reg is due to be published in ammedment 3 in the coming new year Jan 2015 and that particular reg only isn't going to be effective until a year later 2016..... even for BS7671 changes, it sounds a bit far fetched!


Edit to add: I retract the above! Just saw this quote from hager:

"The third amendment to BS 7671:2008 Requirements for Electrical Installations will be issued in January 2015 and is intended to come into effect on 1st July 2015. Installations designed after 30th June 2015 are to comply with BS 7671:2008 incorporating Amendment 3, 2015.
However, Regulation 421.1.201 does not come into effect until the 1st January 2016. This does not preclude compliance with this regulation prior to this date."

What a mess this one is going to be!

-------------------------
:beer)

Edited: 19 October 2014 at 08:54 AM by weirdbeard
 18 October 2014 08:42 AM
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davezawadi

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There is something completely wrong with these statistics. If all these " loose?" connections were causing fires then there would be many boards found where loose connections had not caused a fire, and we would all have seen them quite regularly, with a few charred bits around the odd breaker. In my experience these are quite rare, so I question the numbers. Data collection by fire brigades is notoriously unreliable, because they do not have the level of technical knowledge that is often necessary, hence the forensic fire investigation companies who work for the insurers. If this was a "real" problem those would be the ones shouting about it, mainly the insurers, but it is not. Therefore I suspect that these figures come down to interpretation of results, some of which would not stand up to scrutiny. I am equally suspicious as the ESC etc are involved, as they seem to be prepared to do anything to keep the schemes going. How many firemen, after a nasty fire around the intake meter and cu, could decide which bit went up first, or whether it was really the alarm psu that caused the fire? I'd bet its not very many....
Many of these reported fires are probably minor in nature, were actually extinguished before the firemen arrived, and just made a mess. Changing the plastic to metal will not change the insides of the MCBs which are largely made of plastic, so we will still have a mess!
I certainly could not code a new plastic CU as unsatisfactory, it has been tested and presumably passes all the standards including gross overloads, and didn't catch fire then so why should it later? Can you even imagine the customer reaction to such a situation. Again we are in the position where a stroke of a pen changes the safety of the installation, which it cannot. The London fire brigade should be asked to pass all the documentary evidence and photos to the IET before such a change were even considered, because the outcome is very serious for the country and potentially costs £10 billion pounds to correct! (25,000,000 installations x £400). It is a gross overreaction to a minor problem in my view.

-------------------------
David
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 20 October 2014 10:25 AM
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impvan

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Originally posted by: davezawadi

Data collection by fire brigades is notoriously unreliable..


Downright dodgy I'd say. If the LFB's figures don't seem quite right, and they're one of the better outfits, what are the figures from the rural brigades like?

I myself have witnessed a FB callout to "smell of smoke" being put down as electrical, when it was found to be a fag-end smouldering in dry compost in a window box. It took a good six months to get the records changed.

I was also called round to a pensioner's bungalow, after the FB switched off her fuseboard. The logged "consumer unit fault" was just a smelly bakelite lampholder which she'd recently put a 150W bulb into.

Another pensioner in the same complex wanted me to put extra sockets in her lounge, after the FB - on one of their helpful inspections - insisted that the 4-way 1m extension running her telly and digibox was a fire risk. He missed the polystyrene ceiling tiles...

I too strongly believe that the Fire Brigade reports should be independently audited before any decisions are made based upon them. We don't need a repeat of the 'dodgy dosier' which initially promoted Part P.
Certainly round here, the LABC have a tame electrician on retainer, for doing the Part P (non-reg) inspections. Perhaps these electricians could be used to give an initial opinion? Most cases should be diagnosable without being a forensic investigator! I think that route would be better than, say, giving electrical knowledge to a FB member.
 20 October 2014 05:51 PM
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jcm256

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These guys say example of non combustible consumer unit is steel.
By the way looks like will have to purchase a new yellow BS7671 book in January.
Though this amendment was, free.

http://www.3rdamendment.co.uk/

RCD for TT anyone.
200 tick boxes, zombies or what.
 21 October 2014 06:13 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: davezawadi

There is something completely wrong



Agreed.


The London fire brigade should be asked to pass all the documentary evidence and photos to the IET before such a change were even considered,


IETLFB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AaKOx5q1j4


because the outcome is very serious for the country.


Agreed.

-------------------------
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 19 October 2014 01:28 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: weirdbeard

Originally posted by: Bhilly



Good point. At the moment the intention is that the new reg won't come into force until 1st Jan 2016 to give the manufacturers time to sort their product range out.




Hi Bhilly, if the new reg is due to be published in ammedment 3 in the coming new year Jan 2015 and that particular reg only isn't going to be effective until a year later 2016..... even for BS7671 changes, it sounds a bit far fetched!





Edit to add: I retract the above! Just saw this quote from hager:



"The third amendment to BS 7671:2008 Requirements for Electrical Installations will be issued in January 2015 and is intended to come into effect on 1st July 2015. Installations designed after 30th June 2015 are to comply with BS 7671:2008 incorporating Amendment 3, 2015.

However, Regulation 421.1.201 does not come into effect until the 1st January 2016. This does not preclude compliance with this regulation prior to this date."



What a mess this one is going to be!


I retract my earlier retraction....having thought about........It's marketing bull and the idea that domestic metal DBs will take over deserves a place in GeoffB's volt-stick repositary:



Thankfully, the electrical inspector can easily refer to electrical safety firsts website for important information about electrical products that are not fit to be in service:

http://www.electricalsafetyfir...g.uk/product-recalls/



-------------------------
:beer)
 16 October 2014 12:43 PM
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Bhilly

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Another reason is that LFB have only recently started to look into the problem. In the majority of cases fire services don't have the time to thoroughly investigate cause of fires where it is suspected of being electrical in origin and a lot of the time it gets recorded as appliance faults rather than fixed wire. I don't think there has been a dramatic increase, just the fact that LFB are actively looking out for them now.
 16 October 2014 01:11 PM
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24Hour

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the problem of tt metal boards and the like gave me the idea of asking mr t cable at the recent amex show.
he went at length to say about the metal boards and even said that as far as he was concerned at the time of speaking to the iet, bs, and manufactures, even the mcb,s themselves had to be of a metal construction to fully comply with the new standard !.
and no blanking plates where to be used either !

he aslo said that a suitable cable stuffing gland was the only way suitable for tt rcds in a metal enclosure, because the definition of an rcd main switch , is switchgear thus it has to be a metal enclosure.
the manufacturers make a 25mm stuffing gland that has 2 or 3 holes in a rubber gasket for your tails, but no manufacture has yet or have implied that they will in future make a metal variant.

on a side note, id like to see someone install 2x25mm tails and a 16mm earth in a 25mm stuffing gland, it will no doubt be v tight.

-------------------------
Yes i do do 24/7 everyday of the FLAMIN year.
 16 October 2014 02:33 PM
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Zoro

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So let's look at the department for Communities and Local Government, National statistics for fires in Dwellings. Where the source of ignition was electrical distribution.

Figures in thousands.
2000/01 2.7
2002/03 2.5
2003/04 2.7

2004/05 2.8 Start of Part P
2005/06 3.0
2006/07 2.9
2007/08 2.9
2008/09 3.2
2009/10 N/A
2010/11 4.0
2011/12 3.8 33%
2012/13 4.2 50% since 2004/5


The split between Consumer unit and Meter/Service cut-out fires, was approximately 50-50 in 2012.

As can be seen the number of fires has been increasing substantially, and now sits at a 50% increase since the start of Part P. Although we can debate the material used for the enclosure for ever the facts are that fires within Consumer units, Meters and Service cut-outs is increasing rapidly.

The work that the London Fire Brigade are doing to protect the public and those within the Fire Brigade should be applauded, the cause incorrect "Termination" should be addressed by those within the industry, which it is currently not.

I do not believe that this is all due to our eastern European friends, or cannabis farms, much of it must remain the responsibility of people from within the Schemes. Who have an inability to terminate correctly.

Trade representatives, that have looked in detail at the problem, have raised their concerns about the standards of installation, but predictable the Schemes ignore the Trade, placing their commercial interests first again.

Why is this only a UK installation problem?
 16 October 2014 02:45 PM
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napitprofessional

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There was an increase in fires when Part P came in - and a steady increase from 2008 onwards.

Of course, the scams embracing an open door policy around 2007/8 (as highlighted by DCLG`s own monitoring in 2007 i.e. abuse of entry requirements) is purely coincidental ....

-------------------------
B. Eng (Hons) MIET
 16 October 2014 10:30 PM
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sparkingchip

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and the 17th edition of the regs was published requiring the increased use of RCD'S resulting in a increasing number of fuse boards being replaced with new plastic consumer units.

There are many possible explanations as to the increased number of reported consumer unit fires.

I really find it hard to believe that better quality plastic consumer units cannot be produced to contain fires.

Andy
 16 October 2014 10:58 PM
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mapj1

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

I really find it hard to believe that better quality plastic consumer units cannot be produced to contain fires.



Andy

Agree, totally

Blurb for plastic replacement for Bar Armour

We live in a world that can make a fibre loaded plastic net that stops an Rocket Propelled Grenade at least as well as the existing steel boot-scrapers.

Fibreglass for 500C or more

Simple plastics exist that go up to 350 degrees service temperature

Epoxies
polyimides

How hard can it be indeed.

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 16 October 2014 at 11:10 PM by mapj1
 18 October 2014 09:01 AM
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mapj1

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If that cost is correct, then even if the number of fires figures are correct and if it is 3 to 4 thousand fires a year, and each fire causes a whopping 100K pounds of damage, it is clearly better to use the money for something that will do more good, and to let them burn, for the next fifty years or so, before that investment is paid back.

Of you think the fires only do on average 10K of damage its more like 500 years to payback. I suspect really its somewhere in between.

Feels a bit like the Vulcan bomber pilot's eye patch calculations !

-------------------------
regards Mike
 19 October 2014 08:45 AM
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weirdbeard

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Oh dear.....looks like Hager are supporting the metal consumer unit push.....


In their own words:


" This would mean that eventually all new consumer units installed in UK homes, i.e. within domestic (household) premises must have their enclosures manufactured from a non-combustible material, or be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure constructed from a non-combustible material. This is likely to result in an increased use of metal enclosures "



http://www.hager.co.uk/news-ex...nt-3-changes/36687.htm

-------------------------
:beer)
 19 October 2014 09:13 PM
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Zoro

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Well the delay to 2016 for implementation will be the manufacturers lobby in JPEL64, get rid of the old stock, then hold seminars saying you have to replace all the plastic consumer units fitted in 20151/6 to metal or different plastic, as they are dangerous.

I don't have a copy of the specifications for the current consumer units, but I have been informed that the back of most plastic units meet the 960 degree spec already, it is just the covers. Do you think that the manufacturers will supply new spec covers, grin.

Anyone seen any evidence to support the Electrical Safety Councils statement that Part P has been a success, because fires in dwellings have been reduced by 17.5%, many people are looking, but the facts are just not there. Just more blatant Propaganda.

So even if the statistics don't specify exactly which distribution device went on fire, why was there an increase from 33% in 12/13 to 50% in 13/14?

.
 19 October 2014 10:48 PM
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mapj1

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Who really knows,
Culd be nothing to do with plastic CUs, and just lots of old VIR and hairy tails finally failing.
As there are less calls by meter readers, and more estimated readings, maybe things don't get spotted as soon..
Or it could be an effect of part P meaning ordinary people aren't doing their own CU changes with a bread knife any more,
and in some way they are safer than electricians doing it (as if many ever did, and part P wont affect them anyway).
It could be that the number of fires isn't going down as fast as expected, and as it can't be 'smoking' any more
but putting 'don't know' looks sloppy, so the 'electrical' box gets ticked more often when its not very clear.
Joking aside, I'd expect the weather to be a factor, as thing tend to die under load, so very hot summers and very cold winters
will stress things.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 20 October 2014 09:56 AM
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FizzleBang

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I wonder what would happen to the number of "electrical fires" per year if each such diagnosis was independently audited?

We all seem to be aware of cases where "electrical" was declared when quite blatantly it wasn't.

And for the majority of those rare fires that did have an electrical cause the fault was nothing to do with the the fixed wiring installation.

At both our current house and our previous house we've seen serious fires at the next door but one neighbours (must be an effect we have!).
The first, in the 90's was declared as being electrical even though the electrical engineer (no seriously he was a real engineer!) who looked over the ashes was a close family friend. He gave us the nod that he'd found nothing suspicious. That didn't come as a surprise as I'd been awoken on the night of the fire by the sound of our immediate, nut job neighbour kicking his jerry can round the drive. Some cover up going on apparently.

The second, a few years ago was very nasty and the elderly and infirm neighbours were rescued by some builders working next door. it was electrical but we were told at the time that it was due to daisy chained extension leads supplying a portable heater in the conservatory on a hot summer day.

Anyway,I do wonder if having a metal clad CU would offer protection against arson or old age.

-------------------------
To me, to you
 20 October 2014 06:04 PM
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sparkingchip

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£150 package? If you do we could ride down together for the one day course or maybe not!

Currently NAPIT and Megger are doing a joint meeting at a local golf club as a freebie update course for NAPIT members in this area and similar across the country.

Andy
 20 October 2014 10:13 PM
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sparkingchip

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Tony said it is only 120 tick boxes, don't exaggerate!
 21 October 2014 06:56 PM
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weirdbeard

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Why aren't manufacturers jumping up and down to defend their current/existing domestic non ferrous consumer units that have so far not caught fire ????

-------------------------
:beer)
 21 October 2014 07:00 PM
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OMS

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Probably because they are heaving a huge sigh of relief and thanking whatever God they pray to that it's "them" not "us"

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 21 October 2014 07:09 PM
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elecyvie

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If you go to the BEAMA site they have issued a guide to domestic consumer units and the interpretation of the Amd 3 regulation states that even in a garage a metal board should be used

-------------------------
Millerhill
 21 October 2014 07:18 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: elecyvie

If you go to the BEAMA site they have issued a guide to domestic consumer units and the interpretation of the Amd 3 regulation states that even in a garage a metal board should be used


Hi elecyvie, as well as garages.....what about the popular DP isolator with insulated enclosure in the tails between the meter and consumer unit that is provided by the supplier....things could get interesting if that enclosure needed earthing!

-------------------------
:beer)
 21 October 2014 07:27 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: OMS

Probably because they are heaving a huge sigh of relief and thanking whatever God they pray to that it's "them" not "us"



Regards



OMS


Hi OMS, sorry to hear you had a week off hope your feeling better) It's not clear from your post, but who is they, them and us?

-------------------------
:beer)
 21 October 2014 07:26 PM
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FizzleBang

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I'm wondering what y'all will be coding the type of consumer unit you're fitting this year when you're doing EICR's next year?

Sounds like a rich vein of work: "Ohhhhh yes, it needs doing missus, it's a fire risk..."

-------------------------
To me, to you
 21 October 2014 07:30 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: FizzleBang

I'm wondering what y'all will be coding the type of consumer unit you're fitting this year when you're doing EICR's next year?



Sounds like a rich vein of work: "Ohhhhh yes, it needs doing missus, it's a fire risk..."


£££££££......or possibly the most ignored reg ever

-------------------------
:beer)
 21 October 2014 07:39 PM
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OMS

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Thanks


To clarify

They - plastic consumer unit manufacturers

Them - as above but who have had fires

Us - the ones who haven't (yet) had fires

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 21 October 2014 08:14 PM
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FizzleBang

Posts: 1309
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Originally posted by: weirdbeard
..or possibly the most ignored reg ever [IMG][/IMG]


Only until the stockpile is gone and everyone has bought some decent hole saws and matching grommets for fabricating those all important oversize cable entries!

-------------------------
To me, to you
 21 October 2014 08:25 PM
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sparkingchip

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As Elecyvie said BEAMA have produced a technical report, as OMS points out it is installers who are responsible for the fires leaving loose connections according to the report and the manufacturers are having to respond to the problem we are creating with new products, but don't need to defend the existing products from criticism.

http://www.beama.org.uk/en/new...unit-regulation


Technical report under publications

http://www.beama.org.uk


Andy
 21 October 2014 09:06 PM
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UKPN

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is your steel fuseboard earthed via a copper water main?

Regards
 21 October 2014 09:15 PM
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peteTLM

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Originally posted by: UKPN

is your steel fuseboard earthed via a copper water main?



Regards


By default Only since your service joint went rotten in the street and you lot turned up and denied any responsibility for anything at all despite it blatantly being TNS via split con.

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 21 October 2014 09:29 PM
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sparkingchip

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Presumably there will be a massive increase in requests for the suppliers to install new or improved earth terminals.

Hopefully the network operators will be on the ball and plan to cope the possible forthcoming increased work load.

Andy
 21 October 2014 09:52 PM
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UKPN

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"hopefully the network operators will be on the ball"

we stopped using metal stuff years ago and UKPN lead in the steel cut-out change programme. still, I suppose you guys will be asking us to leave metal cut-outs in now!
I dont think we will be changing our policy to suit the "wiring regulations". In "non earthing offered" situations, and "high value loops"
which are unavoidable for technical reasons, and of course "special situations" the contractor will have to use plastic main sw/gear.

Regards

reg 421.1.200 - non combustible materials/inside non combustible materials.

Edited: 21 October 2014 at 10:21 PM by UKPN
 21 October 2014 10:18 PM
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slittle

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It's going to be an interesting learning curve. I missed the local ECA branch presentation on the subject as I was up to my knees in mud trying to sort some substation earthing on a new ukpn sub (something ironic there me thinks )

How are we going to get our tails into a metal board ?? surely a plastic stuffing gland is out too ?

Stu
 21 October 2014 10:23 PM
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UKPN

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we will be watching you stuart-

Regards
 21 October 2014 10:49 PM
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sparkingchip

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A simple answer for where the network operator can not offer an earth would be for the network operator or metering service to install a RCD main switch in their own plastic enclosure for the electrician to install the steel consumer unit tails into.

Andy
 21 October 2014 10:59 PM
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mapj1

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Well unless meter tails are suddenly in pyro, I think a glass fibre filled self-extinguishing plastic stuffing gland will be in order.
Changing CU s is a disproportionate cost, even if it had no risk entailed and actually it needs a real risk assessment.

Metal main cutouts and meters have long gone out of fashion in favour of insulated enclosure for a very good safety reason.

It would be near criminal negligence to create a significant new shock risk to mitigate a small fire risk

-------------------------
regards Mike
 22 October 2014 11:22 AM
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Bhilly

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Totally agree Mike - that's why we've developed an alternative - miniature thermal switches which can monitor for excessive heat at electrical connection points and either alert the occupant via a suitable alarm or else disconnect the circuit if its RCD/RCCB or RCBO, thus removing the ignition source. Unfortunately, the "big boys" and the powers that be would rather sell metal cu's instead. Still doesn't stop the fire...
 22 October 2014 11:56 AM
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Bhilly

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This is the latest info from BEAMA on the subject. At least they state that the intent is to contain fires not stop them, as other organisations have been claiming:

http://www.beama.org.uk/downlo...-4510-8714386742BF5358
 22 October 2014 12:09 PM
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sparkingchip

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Of course the network operators or metering companies won't install a simple main switch as standard, so they will not install a RCD that would have a maintenance obligation.

Andy
 22 October 2014 12:19 PM
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AJJewsbury

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A simple answer for where the network operator can not offer an earth would be for the network operator or metering service to install a RCD main switch in their own plastic enclosure for the electrician to install the steel consumer unit tails into.

And "their" plastic enclosure would presumably be subject to the same laws of physics as ones installed under BS 7671 - so the alleged fire risk is merely moved a few inches upstream, not really mitigated.
- Andy.
 22 October 2014 02:03 PM
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mapj1

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Agree.
And we must also ask which is more common
1) a house with an earth off,
2) or a house with an undetected fire.

Personally I don't do much domestic electrics, at least these days, but given the way the ironing board and the hoover always traditionally had to be evicted to read the meter (*), I'd not be surprised to find the former is more common, and having the enclosure for the means of isolation being a bit tingly live due to a 10ma or so of earth leakage is not going to do much for user confidence.

As it's only the occupiers liability act that applies to most domestic installations, unlike a commercial setting, it is not reasonable to expect householders to have a site sparks and health and safety division, or even a regime of regular maintenance and safety inspection, so faults that don't actually plunge the place into blackness are likely to go un-noticed for months, maybe even years.


(*)_In my house its two deck chairs and a cat basket, but the understairs cupboard is a bit smaller than many.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 23 October 2014 09:01 AM
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davezawadi

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I'm afraid that the interview with Geoff Cronshaw does not inspire my confidence. He looked unhappy, was not relaxed, did not ask any hard questions, and clearly did not want to be there. Loose terminals are being blamed but as I said before I do not see much evidence of this. The ones I can remember were usually BS3036 boards, or BS1361 fused boards which had not been inspected for 25 years and were corroded, had incorrect size fuse wire, or one of the two terminal screws was missing (they had two then!) probably since installation.
How LFB managed to loose 3 firemen by entanglement in cables doesn't sound right either. Obviously they had lost their rope, radio, and mate all at the same time, or were not adopting a safe operating procedure, so blame the cables! In fact I don't remember 3 deaths at all, as they ought to have learnt something from the first one. These were probably not very recent (say the last 10 years) as we would have the HSE chasing this, which we don't.
Don't get the idea that I am blaming the victims, because I'm not, but this has such large implications that it needs much more evidence that this change is going to make a real identifiable safety difference. This is condemning virtually every domestic electrical installation in the country, and I don't see that this reasonable or proportional to either the potential risk, or cost which is huge.
Interestingly there ought to be a similar number of fires in commercial buildings from this cause, but no evidence is offered and these buildings generally catch fire less often than houses.

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET


Edited: 23 October 2014 at 09:12 AM by davezawadi
 23 October 2014 10:15 AM
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Bhilly

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To make matters worse, Charlie Pugsley from the LFB has stated publicly that this reg change will prevent fires. Wrong. At least BEAMA state that the intent of 421.1.201 is to contain any fire within the enclosure. That will obviously depend upon how well the enclosure is sealed..Also, by containing the fire for longer before it breaches or sets off a smoke detector the occupant gets less warning, which isn't such a good thing.
 23 October 2014 10:47 PM
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sparkingchip

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Not C1 as something else has to happen first for it to become dangerous.

So maybe C2, but C3 is nearer the mark.

Andy
 23 October 2014 11:30 PM
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davezawadi

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If you want to change the world, then this is the time to say so. But if the regulations say live conductors are not allowed within reach, any installation with this is code C1. Once the regulations say plastic fuseboards are not permitted this is a code C1 without question. There is no space for anything else. Do you really think that a banned item is other than C1? If so you have a severe problem with everything that the regulations mean, as any deviation is then subject to question and the regulations are destroyed. Is that what you want? I certainly don't as it is a cowboys charter! I know some might say a plastic DB is C3 but they are idiots without any brains at all, they have no understanding of standards or anything else, so they are prepared to guarantee that it is not dangerous with all their money on the line? I think not. Anyone like that is not fit to be an inspector let alone anything to do with the IET.

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 24 October 2014 06:25 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: davezawadi
Is that what you want? I certainly don't as it is a cowboys charter! I know some might say a plastic DB is C3 but they are idiots without any brains at all, they have no understanding of standards or anything else, so they are prepared to guarantee that it is not dangerous with all their money on the line? I think not. Anyone like that is not fit to be an inspector let alone anything to do with the IET.

God's gift to the IET regulations rides again. One has lost one's rational, and being one's obnoxious self again!

Wait for the ESC guidance on the matter!

Regards
 24 October 2014 07:39 AM
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davezawadi

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I'm afraid that I cannot accept that something in direct contravention of the regulations can ever not be a C1. You are claiming there is no instant risk, in that they may only catch fire if there is some other problem, like loose screws. Then why change the regulation at all? If the problem is screws you make regulations to correct the screws! In fact there already are such, so no change is needed. If the LFB wants to check the screws then they could even train a few firemen in London to do this and the problem is cured.

A further example would be electrical items in a petrol station forecourt. If I inspect these and find that the Ex rated seals are not in place or that incorrect non Ex items are used what code is that? It is not immediately dangerous as we need a whole host of other circumstances to cause a fire or explosion. I also code this as a C1, as the wrong equipment and installation method has been used and it presents a very high potential risk if the other circumstances happen, which they do occasionally somewhere in the country.

I see that the seminar is going to cover several other "new" areas as well, one called RCD risk assessments. The other one is overhead cable fixings in escape routes. The other changes are pretty minor and just pad out the seminar, unless the wiring regulations are suddenly going to contain regulations on lighting levels and sources, or even energy efficiency, perhaps based on vacuum cleaners (does anyone want to support that one as being necessary, worthwhile and cost effective?).

As I stated before I see a flimsy evidence base, not supported by my experience, a suggestion that self extinguishing plastics can burn when the source of ignition has gone, and a claim that simply making the enclosure of metal (with all the associated plastic stuff inside, holes to access the MCBs and for cables) without a requirement for fireproof seals everywhere to prevent fire from exiting the enclosure (very similar to Ex) is going to make an immense difference, when the occurrence of this kind of fire is tiny anyway. Note that neither insurers or the HSE has taken any effort to ask for this change as far as I can establish.

The position of the inspector is also under threat as he is accepting liability for not following a regulation, should he use other than C1, that is clearly stated to be as a result of many fires and potentially loss of life. Your PI insurer would take a very dim view of that, and it would only take a single case to raise the premium to new heights for everyone. The poor guy involved would probably become uninsurable. (One for BOD there!). This is not a case of reasonable doubt, the case is already made that these plastic items are not fit for purpose, all at the stroke of a pen.

There is also a problem with recent installations and warranties for them. If an item used suddenly becomes to be banned, the client probably has redress against you as you, as you failed in your professional judgement in selecting the equipment for the installation. Clearly you should have known that these plastic items were not fit for purpose, and the regulation change simply backed this up to help the others. Similarly the manufacturers are also open to claims that the product was unfit for sale, which they should have known from tests, unless of course we blame the installer for not tightening the terminals to the required torque (which could not be checked after unknown heating in a fire, you loose anyway), something which has been creeping up for a few years now and the reason was not clear before.

I feel that this is an over reaction to a non-problem. I have been to some effort to explain why I think this, and why such a change is a severe problem with all existing installations with a plastic CU. Unless the inspection section is also changed to allow existing installations to be non compliant, and for the inspector to not be responsible for the outcome should he code this as satisfactory, we have a problem. If you wish to disagree, please keep to the forum rules, and make reasoned arguments not ad hominem remarks which bring you into disrepute.

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 24 October 2014 07:44 AM
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davezawadi

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Ah donglebat, you can't. You see there are no compliant CUs available, thats why they want to put this off for six months! Also expect a significant price hike, this kind of thing doesn't come cheap.

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David
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 24 October 2014 09:15 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: davezawadi
I'm afraid that I cannot accept that something in direct contravention of the regulations can ever not be a C1.

C1 for a plastic C.U. proved to be no danger?. Your efforts don't convince me!

Regards
 24 October 2014 09:25 AM
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mapj1

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As an example, is not a non green/yellow sleeved CPC also a clear contravention of regs, but please tell me its not an imminent danger to life, so not C1. (Well not in my world of stuff running with the covers off, and all the whirly bits exposed. I have enough trouble with things that are not earthed at all and an odd case of mains on 4mm bannana plugs, and we all know it should be the sockets that are livened up on the variacs..)

not quite the same model, but shows the concept.

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regards Mike
 23 October 2014 11:58 PM
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sparkingchip

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A consumer unit with blanks missing allowing contact with live parts is C1 because you can touch the live parts without anything else happening.

As we keep being told a plastic consumer unit will only catch fire if the is a source of ignition, it won't just burst into flames, so something else has to happen first therefore it is not C1.

So that leaves a choice of C2, C3 or not coding.

Andy
 24 October 2014 07:33 AM
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donglebat

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Can't the cu's that do and don't conform be named then we could just buy the right cu.
 24 October 2014 09:23 AM
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Bhilly

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Judging by the differing opinions that have been expressed re. EICR codes, I think we could do with clarification from the likes of IET, NICEIC, ECA etc. And I bet that the answers will all be different - at the end of the day, the codes we put down are subjective ie. our individual interpretations of BS7671.

As a matter of interest, the company I represent was part of the All Party Parliamentary Fire Safety & Rescue group looking into the whole issue of electrical fires. It was a bit of a shock at the last meeting we were invited to in May when the man from Electrical safety First jumped up and said that they'd found a solution. Hence the metal consumer unit reg. Needless to say, we told the meeting what we thought - and haven't been invited back since....
 24 October 2014 02:16 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: Bhilly
As a matter of interest, the company I represent was part of the All Party Parliamentary Fire Safety & Rescue group looking into the whole issue of electrical fires. It was a bit of a shock at the last meeting we were invited to in May when the man from Electrical safety First jumped up and said that they'd found a solution. Hence the metal consumer unit reg. Needless to say, we told the meeting what we thought - and haven't been invited back since....


The DPC of the new ammendment was available December 2013, it must've been a kicker for you to only be told of this in May... and in front of the All Party Parliamentary Fire Safety & Rescue group looking into the whole issue of electrical fires.....

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 24 October 2014 12:49 PM
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KFH

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Without a list of the currently flammable or alternatively the non flammable CUs how will we know that it likely to burst into flames and therefore be worthy of a code on an EICR? I can see myself being really popular when I do an inspection in a couple of years and say the consumer unit I installed is now non compliant. Does any one know how many or what % of the old Wylex wooden consumer units have caused fires?
 24 October 2014 01:03 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: KFH

Without a list of the currently flammable or alternatively the non flammable CUs how will we know that it likely to burst into flames and therefore be worthy of a code on an EICR?


The advice published by the BBC in june

edit to add link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28080469


"The fire service also asked homeowners and landlords to check that fuse boards in their properties were on the Electrical Safety First's recall list."


So i guess this must also apply to electricians - if it ain't on the recall list it's fine


http://www.electricalsafetyfir...rg.uk/product-recalls/

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 24 October 2014 01:25 PM
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sparkingchip

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To quote the BBC:

"A new regulation coming into force in January will make it mandatory for all fuse boards to be made from fireproof material or be in a special fireproof box."

Great a misleading report by the BBC that reads as the changes take effect this next January really helps the situation.

And that link to the Electrical Safety First product recall list is giving inappropriate reassurance to people carrying out a check for recalled consumer units as advised. How many people know that the Wylex, Crabtree, Volex Steeple, Alto, Sector and Newlec MCB recall is listed under the name Electrium indeed would they even know a MCB is a component of a consumer unit?

It would be appropriate to request the BBC to rewrite this news story to make it accurate.

Andy

Edited: 24 October 2014 at 01:43 PM by sparkingchip
 24 October 2014 04:11 PM
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Zoomup

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Originally posted by: weirdbeard

Originally posted by: KFH



Without a list of the currently flammable or alternatively the non flammable CUs how will we know that it likely to burst into flames and therefore be worthy of a code on an EICR?




The advice published by the BBC in june



edit to add link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28080469





"The fire service also asked homeowners and landlords to check that fuse boards in their properties were on the Electrical Safety First's recall list."





So i guess this must also apply to electricians - if it ain't on the recall list it's fine





http://www.electricalsafetyfir...rg.uk/product-recalls/


The Electricalsafetydirst recall notices are very worrying. There are many previously respected big name manufacturers involved. This is very worrying, as, if I wanted to buy a new domestic appliance for example, made (or branded by) a big name maker for reliability and safety, I am NOT assured these days of getting a safe and reliable machine. It is one big gamble as to whether my new appliance in the kitchen is going to catch fire, melt or explode or not. And those with no engineering experience, i.e. the general unwashed, trust these recognised makers to produce safe equipment. This situation is intolerable and should be improved immediately.

Bye,

Z.
 24 October 2014 04:22 PM
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sparkingchip

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"The fire service also asked homeowners and landlords to check that fuse boards in their properties were on the Electrical Safety First's recall list."

That cannot be done because of the way the Information is presented by Electrical Safety First on their website unless you are a knowledgeable electrician.

Andy
 24 October 2014 06:00 PM
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Zoomup

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Originally posted by: sparkingchip

"The fire service also asked homeowners and landlords to check that fuse boards in their properties were on the Electrical Safety First's recall list."



That cannot be done because of the way the Information is presented by Electrical Safety First on their website unless you are a knowledgeable electrician.



Andy


Perhaps the tenants should smell the fuse boards at close quarters, look for smoke or feel for heat build up with the back of their hands. Some landlords will not make any effort to ensure safety. So they will not be likely to call in a qualified electrician at all. A battery operated smoke alarm near to the fuse board would be a good DIY safety install. Easily done by most people.

Some houses build in the mid 70s had an external meter cupboard containing a gas meter and electricity meter. It was lined with fire retarding material. The consumer units in question in those homes were Wylex metalclad types. Did they know back then something that we have forgotten?

Bye,

Z.
 24 October 2014 06:39 PM
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davezawadi

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I am really worried that understanding of the words "not permitted" cannot be understood!
I have given several examples, and all of them show why the words "not permitted" are important.
If you think about it, you should not be thinking I am harsh, but whoever got us to this point has missed it entirely! I don't believe these boards are dangerous to any great extent, and it is not me who wants them banned. Experience says that they are entirely satisfactory, as again I have discussed. It is JPEL/64 who have got it wrong, and as far as I can find out for all the wrong reasons. This new regulation is a political, not an engineering response to a tiny problem, pushed by a small pressure group. I see no reason at all for this regulation, and many others agree. I hear that this is from the ESC (or connected group) and is therefore subject to reasonable question, as they may not have the same attitude to the whole problem, as there is a vested interest in Part P fees which will be huge if this goes forward. So examine all the facts, consider the examples and find that you could pass any of them as satisfactory at your personal peril, after all the cost to a sparks will be minimal, and possibly the rewards very high, as will be the consequences if you get it wrong.

Not permitted can never give a satisfactory EICR certificate to an installation of such an item, and issuing an EIC would be simply fraudulent, because you are doing this because you receive a payment. Beware.

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 24 October 2014 07:48 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: davezawadi
So examine all the facts, consider the examples and find that you could pass any of them as satisfactory at your personal peril, after all the cost to a sparks will be minimal, and possibly the rewards very high, as will be the consequences if you get it wrong.

Scary warnings from the forum's harbinger of doom.

Not permitted can never give a satisfactory EICR certificate to an installation of such an item, and issuing an EIC would be simply fraudulent, because you are doing this because you receive a payment. Beware.


Ditto.
 25 October 2014 02:07 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: davezawadi
I am really worried that understanding of the words "not permitted" cannot be understood!

Why should one be worried, or two for that matter: as my uncle Abe used to say "Only worry about things you have control over"

Regards
 24 October 2014 02:14 PM
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Bhilly

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Advice given on Contactum's website- Question: Does this mean all installed consumer units with plastic enclosures are a fire risk?

Answer: No, provided the consumer unit and its incorporated components conform to the relevant product standard(s), do not have latent defects, and have been installed correctly to the manufacturer's instructions.

Which seems to indicate that, when carrying out an EICR post July 2016 there is no need to give a plastic cu in a domestic installation a C1 or 2 code as long as the above requirements are met. This seems to make sense as the major source of ignition re. electrical connections is resistive heating due to high resistance connections; the plastic itself doesn't suddenly self combust, it's the stuff inside the enclosure that we ought to be concentrating on. I note from BEAMA's technical bulletin that there will still be a hinged door - presumably secured in place and intumescently sealed???
 24 October 2014 02:26 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: Bhilly

Advice given on Contactum's website- Question: Does this mean all installed consumer units with plastic enclosures are a fire risk?



Answer: No, provided the consumer unit and its incorporated components conform to the relevant product standard(s), do not have latent defects, and have been installed correctly to the manufacturer's instructions.




Thats last on the list at 10 - to get to 10 you have to negotiate advice item 5:

5. What is meant by ''non-combustible"?

There is no published definition for "non-combustible" that aligns with the intent of regulation 421.1.200. Ferrous metal, e.g. steel is deemed to be one example of a non-combustible material that meets the intent of the regulation.



http://www.contactum.co.uk/con...changes-consumer-units

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 24 October 2014 02:48 PM
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Bhilly

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In the DPC, 421.1.200 also allowed for "not readily combustible" material ie. 960 degree plastic - this option had disappeared off the agenda come May, apparently after Electrium had done some testing of cu's made of said plastic and didn't like the results.
 24 October 2014 03:45 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: Bhilly

In the DPC, 421.1.200 also allowed for "not readily combustible" material ie. 960 degree plastic - this option had disappeared off the agenda come May, apparently after Electrium had done some testing of cu's made of said plastic and didn't like the results.


So you are blaming electrium for this.....I'd take their info with a pinch of salt.....or perhaps you missed the whole electrium/fire risk recall?

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 24 October 2014 04:03 PM
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Bhilly

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Not blaming anyone for anything, mere statement of fact. And no, I didn't miss the Electrium recall fiasco, unfortunately.
 24 October 2014 06:37 PM
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sparkingchip

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I did get a brand new microwave cooker a few weeks ago having found our previous one on the ESF recall list.

That was a real result as I was about to take the old one to the tip!

Andy
 25 October 2014 07:49 PM
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Zoro

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The fire statistics are for England not just the London Fire Brigade area.

The 80 fires a week and increasing is in the distribution area in dwellings (Service Cut-out, Meter and Consumer unit).

In 2004/5 there were 40 a week, the increase in fires (50%) is not due to plastic Consumer units, we have been using them before 2004/5.

In the many reports that different Fire Brigades have produced they state that the number of fires is increasing, Why.

The ESC are running around in JPEL64/All party parliamentary committees etc. stating that Steel CU's will solve the problem in a desperate attempt to spin the problem, into a discussion about containing the fires.

The real problem is the $%$£"!%* work being carried out in installations, but the ESC don't want to admit that there is a problem with standards of installation, neither do the owners of the other Schemes.

I have attended meetings with the London Fire Brigade, Schemes, ESC, they are desperate to not discuss the increasing low standard of people they have deemed Competent.

Why is this a problem just in the UK.

When is JPEL64 going to act on standards of work, probably never, as the vested interest in replacing all 26million consumer units plus sub boards with steel versions is high from the manufacturers , and the continuing drive from the Schemes and their owners for membership numbers at all costs removes the admission that many of their members are Incompetent.

All the burning I have detected in the last 10 years has been loose connections.

.
 25 October 2014 08:58 PM
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John Peckham

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Zoro

I think you may have a point. I think it is a combination of poor workmanship and poor consumer unit design. It would seem to me that the consumer units are made to very low standards to meet a market price point with numerous consumer units and parts made in the far east badged with all sorts of names in a price race to the bottom. I look at shallow the cages are on main switches with hardly enough contact area to grip the conductor and make a satisfactory contact. Neutral and earth bars so small that the threaded holes may only contain a couple of threads.

Put these consumer units in the hands of unskilled or semi skilled installers and you have a recipe for a fire. The consumer unit may be made of a cheap flammable plastic to provide the fuel but the source of the ignition for that fuel to often is poor quality workmanship.


Consumer units do not have to be made of metal and it is stated in the DPC that "metal" is only one example. I feel sure manufactures will be marketing consumer units made of non-flammable plastics in the very near future. The trouble is they will still contain cheap and nasty internal parts.

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John Peckham

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 26 October 2014 06:51 AM
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davezawadi

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We need more information on the actual item which is at fault. "Area" is far too general. It could be cutouts, main switches added by the DNO, smart meters, Henley blocks, RCDs etc.

A recent attempt to give my mother a smart meter by British Gas is a disaster (they couldn't make it work and went away, never to be seen again!) as there are now loads of terminals which have been fitted by a guy with almost no training (I spoke to him), brown and blue tails cable which looks to be rather small, and a very nasty main switch in a very poor plastic case. It hasn't caught fire yet but it looks as though it could very easily.

It is strange (?) that the huge increase in fires in this physical area seems to correspond with smart meters being rolled out, but there is probably no connection at all than can be proved because of the poor quality of the statistics presented. I want much more information because there is something new happening and I don't believe it is just bad workmanship, we have had that for a long time and this fires thing is very new. As Zoro says, we sometimes get a bit of burning from loose connections but rarely a serious fire, and yet the statistics presented blame loose connections, I wonder?

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 26 October 2014 09:39 AM
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sparkingchip

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16mm tails are standard on the suppliers side of the meter in this part of the country as far as I know, so I guess that is what has been installed at your mum's.

Andy
 26 October 2014 06:47 PM
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Zoro

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So Davezawadi here is some evidence for you, from East Sussex Fire Brigade, they are mainly Service Cut-out fires with some CU fires etc.

http://www.cfoa.org.uk/download/18650

The burning I see is obviously worse in the high current connections, nearly always it is bad workmanship, I have yet to see one of the suspect dodgy MCB burn ups.

I am tired of replacing shower pull chords with burning through into the loft.

Statistically the growth has been from 2004/5 at the start of the Part P Scams and increased slowly, over the years, I am not nocking those that have entered the trade.

It is the Part P Industry gravy train who's confidence tricks led DCLG to allow some lucrative membership scams above safety.

The real concern is the increase in electrical fires 2012/13 33% increase 2013/14 50% increase, how long will it take for the remedial work, who should pay the public again?

I have not seen any difference between say a &%$£" Proteus board, and Wylex/MK when it comes to burning, one thing is constant it is high current connections.

.
 26 October 2014 08:39 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: Zoro
The burning I see is obviously worse in the high current connections, nearly always it is bad workmanship,

Not necessarily, obviously there is more likelihood of a failing connection, the higher the value and frequency of a cyclic current. Screw connections are prone to loosening by virtue of the cyclic nature of the thermal load on this type of mechanical connection, and there will be a gradual deterioration of any electrical connection under load and over time, moreso the higher the current.

A screw is simply a long wedge held in place by friction. Go to any connection which has been in constant cyclic useage, and you will probably be able to tighten this, thinking that it had never been tightened at installation time; hence it is preferable that inspections are recommended at frequent intervals where screw terminals are employed. A spring type connection which will increase the pressure upon expansion, is a superior connection; this is probably the future for lower current connections. However there are physical constraints on the application of this type of connection.

Regards
 26 October 2014 09:09 PM
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davezawadi

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That is very interesting isn't it Zoro. It seems that BS7671 is about to be changed because of multiple fires in cutouts whilst only one is in the CU! Clearly I must make some more noise with JPEL/64 BECAUSE THEY ARE DOING THE WRONG THING BECAUSE OF FALSE EVIDENCE or for some other reason yet to be determined.

Regards

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 28 October 2014 08:57 AM
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Zoro

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Originally posted by: Jaymack

Originally posted by: Zoro

The burning I see is obviously worse in the high current connections, nearly always it is bad workmanship,


Not necessarily, obviously there is more likelihood of a failing connection, the higher the value and frequency of a cyclic current. Screw connections are prone to loosening by virtue of the cyclic nature of the thermal load on this type of mechanical connection, and there will be a gradual deterioration of any electrical connection under load and over time, moreso the higher the current.



A screw is simply a long wedge held in place by friction. Go to any connection which has been in constant cyclic useage, and you will probably be able to tighten this, thinking that it had never been tightened at installation time; hence it is preferable that inspections are recommended at frequent intervals where screw terminals are employed. A spring type connection which will increase the pressure upon expansion, is a superior connection; this is probably the future for lower current connections. However there are physical constraints on the application of this type of connection.

Regards


Most of faulty connections that I see in Domestic premises have been installed in the last few years.

In your premise you are blaming screw connections for the 50% increase in fires, instead of the increase in Incompetent Installers.

Are you suggesting that screws have made a conscious decision to work loose during the last ten years?

.
 28 October 2014 09:58 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: Zoro
Are you suggesting that screws have made a conscious decision to work loose during the last ten years?

Firstly screws can't make a constant decision The extent to which loosening occurs, would be dependent on the original torqueing up, residue from manufacturing, whether dissimilar metals are used at the connection, the number of switching incidents (temperature cycling), the ambient temperature, and the amount of current involved.

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 29 October 2014 10:59 PM
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ebee

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"some posts in this thread look to have become a bit heated "

That`s what this thread is all about Chris lad.

Sorry Wierdbeard you said it first but I thought of that remark before I saw yours mate

Anyway yes I think two contributing reasons:-

Naff bloody connectors, as said the old wylex double dome were far superior, those cage thingys are carp.

Incompetent installers (I actually thought Part P might reduce their numbers but no it just licences many of them).

Poor quality of all things electrical (I blame Queen Margaret of Thatcher).

Yes not very well trained meter installers.

We live in a world of price beats all, OK it`s made many things very cheap in real terms compared to the days of yore and that is to be applauded. BUT BUT everything is now Carp even to the point you can`t often get good qualtiy even if you are prepared to pay the premium.

OK that`s not two reasons but who is counting?

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Ebee (M I S P N)

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 29 October 2014 11:09 PM
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ebee

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I can`t ever imagine anyone I consider half decent actually needing a torque wrench if they have the correct training and experience.

Just in the same way I can`t imagine any decent mechanical engineer to use the ratchet when using a micrometer.

This country used to train skill and brilliance as norm.

Now we train to the lowest common denominator and award certificates for brewing tea and tying shoelaces.

Normcall when you were a lad things were done reet

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 26 October 2014 10:17 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: Zoro
I am tired of replacing shower pull chords with burning through into the loft.

Sssh! or no doubt some idiot will propose ones with metal bodies, to prevent non existent conflagrations.

Regards
 26 October 2014 11:59 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 12039
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A spring type connection which will increase the pressure upon expansion, is a superior connection; this is probably the future for lower current connections. However there are physical constraints on the application of this type of connection.

agree utterly, especially for wiring on motors and machinery.
They do come quite large already
Through/Ground Conductor and
Ex Terminal Blocks 35 mm 285 Series
pages 176-178

-------------------------
regards Mike
 28 October 2014 09:14 AM
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AJJewsbury

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Are you suggesting that screws have made a conscious decision to work loose during the last ten years?

In a way, that could be the case. The last 10 years has seen a mass replacement of CUs with modern DIN-rail versions - before that the typical house still had the traditional Wylex style CU (with rewireable fuses or plug-in MCBs). One of the significant features of those CUs were brass tunnel terminals with double screws on all live connections, where the screws would bite into the conductor. Now we have short depth rising clamp terminals, secured by a single screw, which don't seem to be designed for 7-strand 25mm2 conductors and seems to come loose with the slightest provocation (e.g. during a meter change) if there's any space at all for the strands to re-arrange themselves.
- Andy.
 28 October 2014 09:41 AM
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John Peckham

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Andy

What sort of an impact can we expect on fires in domestic properties with modern consumer units when an army of semi skilled meter fitters go around installing smart meters pulling the meter tails in the process?

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 28 October 2014 12:43 PM
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chrisbradley

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Hi all,

From a moderation point of view, some posts in this thread look to have become a bit heated and we've received feedback about this.

If we could keep it calm, friendly and nice-to-each-other please, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks!
Chris - Digital Services, The IET
 28 October 2014 03:09 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: chrisbradley
From a moderation point of view, some posts in this thread look to have become a bit heated and we've received feedback about this.

You talking to me?

What does the moderator have to say, about the reasons for the display errors, in the thread on this link?

http://www.theiet.org/forums/f...id=59636&enterthread=y
 29 October 2014 04:15 PM
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napitprofessional

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i]Originally posted by: chrisbradley

Hi all,



From a moderation point of view, some posts in this thread look to have become a bit heated and we've received feedback about this.



If we could keep it calm, friendly and nice-to-each-other please, it would be much appreciated.



Thanks!

Chris - Digital Services, The IET


Am I correct in assuming that the IET would prefer that it's OWN MEMBERS do not questions decisions made by JPEL64?

If so, it would be most unwise in the present climate ....

-------------------------
B. Eng (Hons) MIET
 29 October 2014 08:12 PM
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weirdbeard

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Originally posted by: napitprofessional

i]Originally posted by: chrisbradley

From a moderation point of view, some posts in this thread look to have become a bit heated and we've received feedback about this.



....LOL chris, thats not very moderate mentioning.'thread's looking a bit 'heated' in a topic about loose screw connections being the root cause of electrical enclosure fires..... LOL

-------------------------
:beer)
 29 October 2014 04:50 PM
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Bhilly

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As a newcomer to this forum, I can only say that it's good to see the level of debate that this issue has raised, because it is an important one. Installers seem to have received most of the blame in terms of poor workmanship causing loose connections yet don't appear to have been consulted in what appears to be a "solution" handed down from above. And yes, I did comment on the proposed reg. during the DPC period but had no response. At the risk of becoming repetitive, it will not stop fires from happening just contain them for longer - possibly giving the occupant less warning.
 29 October 2014 07:37 PM
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Zoro

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The representatives of Electricians have also put forward their views, to reduce the causes of the fires, this was rejected in favour of just containment, a very unsatisfactory situation.

Even the representative of Electricians is restricted from communicating with the people he represents, ensuring the vested interest obtain their commercial decision.

The next thing will be another attempt by the vested interest, to remove the IET from the decision making process.

.
 29 October 2014 08:04 PM
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rocknroll

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Another successful thread like the Part P ones, it has again achieved something very important, AWARENESS.

regartds

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 29 October 2014 10:31 PM
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napitprofessional

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i]Originally posted by: rocknroll

Another successful thread like the Part P ones, it has again achieved something very important, AWARENESS.



regartds


The trade is VERY well aware of what the various organisations ( with THEIR vested interests) is doing to the safety of the public in their homes.

-------------------------
B. Eng (Hons) MIET
 29 October 2014 11:40 PM
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mapj1

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Although of course there is the effect that rose 'tinted spectacles were better when I were a lad'. Only the good examples of old installations and buildings tend to survive - the crummy ones have long since been demolished or renovated, which rather skews the data. There were an awful lot of back to back terraces with a lighting only feed surface wired in by chaps who were as keen to get out as the worst of today's contractors.
True, the old double screwed terminals were probably more robust, but I've seen a few hanging on one screw only with the heads chewed off the other, or one core of the 7 strand either cut short or looped out to make it fit. Poor workmanship is not new.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 30 October 2014 06:46 AM
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davezawadi

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I hope that everyone has examined the pictures in the fire report from Zoro carefully.
The interesting feature is that the CU does not seem to be the culprit in almost all of them, and in the one picture where it obviously was, the plastic has nicely self extinguished in exactly the way that is intended!

So this report proves that the evidence for this change is about as scanty as could be imagined, exactly as discussed by a number of us from our own experience. Now all we have to do is identify why such evidence has been used to make a change to BS7671, and exactly who is responsible, and for what reason they carried out this action.
As discussed by me and several others, containment is not an option available to the "new" CU designer, so what can we expect?

Moving on I wonder how the house builders are going to wire all the new properties they claim to be building next year? Clearly there is no option to fit plastic CUs, and there is no complying alternative available! Fitting a conventional metal CU is also unlikely to comply as they do not contain fire any better than plastic ones due to all the holes for MCBs to poke through etc, perhaps these houses are going to get the "industrial switchgear" look, with solid doors and big chrome handles, not forgetting fireproof glands on all the cable holes too.

I await the fudge factors from the clubs to allow these new installations to be given EICs, although they might try the usual thing of issuing without sight of the installations.
I hope that completion certs will not be available from Building Control due to non-compliance with partP R&R???

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
 30 October 2014 07:26 AM
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napitprofessional

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I doubt EIC"s will. be a problem, thousands of scam member jobs are notified each year with no electrical certification whatsoever ....

.... and even when an EIC HAS been attempted, many appear to have been generated using templates pre-filled with "LIM" s and "N/A" s - always a sure sign of a quality install ....

How on earth can any industry even begin to pretend that the safety of the public within their own homes is being served whilst operating a cartel that sets it's own standards for commercial reasons.

No installation is safe because the paperwork says it is - a safe installation is one that has been designed and installed in compliance with a truly independent standard.

The present farce of an extremely limited number of scam directors forming "independent" decision making "panels" is an insult to the industry and a shameful practice.

-------------------------
B. Eng (Hons) MIET

Edited: 30 October 2014 at 07:51 AM by napitprofessional
 30 October 2014 09:42 AM
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Jaymack

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Metallic spray paint for the use of!

Regards
 30 October 2014 10:34 AM
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Angram

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One aspect of the installation of tails is that it seems to be ok to have them flapping about in free space instead of firmly fixed or in trunking where users cannot shove things into them.
Moving a cable under only one screw means that the screw will drill down into the copper as the tails move even slightly and then run hot. There always had to be two screws and checking the copper was under both screws was one of the most serious points in apprentice training historically. Also the end under seal cannot be tightened after work at the other end.

The word progress means movement forwards; but which way are you facing when you move?

terence.
 30 October 2014 12:06 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: 24Hour
Amendment 3 says that all domestic consumer units are to be all ferrous metallic ? from 1/1/2016.]

This is a blatant case of the tail wagging the dog, where a few decide without consultation with the masses, or did they?, or did they liaise with the makers to revitalise a flagging industry? Those with registration should, if they are conscientious, lobby their bodies in order for them to protest against this nonsense, worthy of a John Cleese, Monty Python script ........... Now then missus, I will have to change your plastic jobbie for a metal one, in case it burns your house down - farcical!

Regards
 30 October 2014 01:18 PM
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davezawadi

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That is precisely what the fire brigades are claiming Jaymack! I want more evidence.....

-------------------------
David
BSc CEng MIET
 30 October 2014 01:18 PM
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napitprofessional

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Industry standards should NOT be set by secretive self-appointed panels of vested interests.

The situation is now so far out of control that a very small section of such a panel sets the standard for the "scams" yet said panel is commonly referred to as "an IET Committee".

Surely the IET should do the right thing and provide some clarification on this issue to both it's own members and the wider industry?

-------------------------
B. Eng (Hons) MIET

Edited: 30 October 2014 at 02:16 PM by napitprofessional
 31 October 2014 12:35 PM
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Zoro

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I agree with most of which has been posted, in particular the comments about vested interest clouding the Public Safety issues. Within our industry there are serious structural problems, which allow that vested interest to abuse their positions, for their own commercial gain. As they have set up their own structure where they are unaccountable to anyone.

The report I posted http://www.cfoa.org.uk/download/18650 , is about Service cut-outs, this why there are a low number of burnt consumer units. Although there are some nice pictures of a MEM steel burnt out two screw barrel connector consumer unit, with porcelain fuses, still intact, for those that long for them to return. (Page 44)
Also remember that meter and service cut-outs are two screw barrel connectors, in the report.

As the rise in fires started 2004/5, I don't think we can totally blame cage terminations as they have been in use for at least 15 years previously. The lack of Competence both in DNO/Supplier contractors and the Competent Person Schemes members is a major contributing factor to the CAUSE of fires.

A discussion about the easiest type of termination for an Incompetent Person to undertake is not appropriate. Any incorrectly terminated 100A connection will result in a fire, unless it is done correctly.

In my area (SSE) the sub contract meter readers (no electrical experience) were given a course of a few days, before undertaking meter changes. How many minutes were given, on the short Competent Person Scheme approved training courses?

.
 31 October 2014 08:39 PM
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FizzleBang

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The vast majority of Scheme Members in my area were established, time served tradesmen forced into schemes by part P.
In 2004/5 there wasn't a sudden rush by "career changers" to jump on 5 day courses. And looking at most of the switch gear and consumer unit fires most of the stuff long predates Part P.

It's now apparent that, if nothing else, Part P brought about a change in attitudes and practices concerning testing and certification. It also brought a good few practitioners under some kind of control. Kitchen fitters (for example) who had been botching kitchen wiring for years were finally being monitored to some degree, however little that was.

So I'd say any perceived increase in such fires starting in the mid naughties is most likely due to a change in classification or how fires are recorded, possibly some manipulation for political reasons and the grand old coming of age of crappy work carried out decades ago. Or a mix of all the above

-------------------------
To me, to you
 01 November 2014 10:01 AM
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Zoomup

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Zoro's link report stated that many fires started at the intake head position and less within consumer units, as reported by the investigating fire officers. A build up of heat due to less than perfect connections due to loose terminal screws of main fuses and tails etc. The tails are vulnerable as if knocked they produce great mechanical strain on the terminals, accentuated by their length and size.
Advice about intake positions and meter cupboards etc.

http://www.esfrs.org/blackmuseum/consumerUnit.shtml

Bye,

Z.
 07 November 2014 10:38 AM
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AJJewsbury

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Technical document from BEAMA

Still no consideration of TT systems? AKAIK the traditional "TT kits" for metalclad CUs will only work with a single RCD incomer - so not much use with a "17th Ed" dual RCD setup or all-RCBOs. Maybe the RCD manufacturers are hoping we'll add a 100mA S type as an incomer?

- Andy.
 07 November 2014 12:01 PM
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GeoffBlackwell

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I attended Elex in Sandown yesterday and this came up during an IET presentation.

They appear to be suggesting a front end time delayed RCD with an the equivalent of an 'insulating kit' on the incoming tails for TT.

The way it came across they seemed to believe that this was a new idea, but in fact it was first used in the 1980's .

Note that metalclad CCUs are not the only solution - it is very likely that some form of plastic enclosure will emerge.


Regards

Geoff Blackwell
 07 November 2014 07:47 PM
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paulskyrme

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BEAMA have released another statement this morning that their members are going steel as they feel that it is the only option that meets the intent of the reg.
Also the Note 2 in the DPC suggesting that the 960 deg glow wire tested material would be suitable has been removed from Amd3 at this stage it seems.
 07 November 2014 08:28 PM
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sparkingchip

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I'm with Geoff, I am starting to think we will see a quality plastic or composite CU to be part of the range available. However at at significantly higher price than those currently available.

Andy
 07 November 2014 09:12 PM
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spinlondon

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What about all those old wooden backed Wylex CUs?
Do any of those pass the glow wire test?
 07 November 2014 09:54 PM
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leckie

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Well what do we think about the idea giving every consumer unit in the country a C1 when we do an EICR post 2015? Dave has said this is how it's to be, and who am I to argue
 07 November 2014 09:57 PM
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paulskyrme

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Originally posted by: leckie

Well what do we think about the idea giving every consumer unit in the country a C1 when we do an EICR post 2015? Dave has said this is how it's to be, and who am I to argue



Dave who?

The consensus I got today from the panel @ Elex which, I hasten to add, would have been my opinion is C3.
 07 November 2014 10:03 PM
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leckie

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Dave Z of course!
You will now have to read the entire thread again Paul