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Topic Title: BS 1363 Plug top
Topic Summary: Max cable size
Created On: 09 May 2013 02:40 PM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
 BS 1363 Plug top   - mpg - 09 May 2013 02:40 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - Ricicle - 09 May 2013 03:25 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - sparkingchip - 09 May 2013 03:44 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - OMS - 09 May 2013 04:08 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - Ricicle - 09 May 2013 04:24 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - OMS - 09 May 2013 04:58 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - perspicacious - 09 May 2013 05:56 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - iie63674 - 10 May 2013 10:33 AM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - OMS - 10 May 2013 10:46 AM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - iie63674 - 10 May 2013 11:55 AM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - OMS - 10 May 2013 12:35 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - iie63674 - 10 May 2013 01:10 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - OMS - 10 May 2013 01:24 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - ectophile - 10 May 2013 01:14 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - iie63674 - 10 May 2013 01:17 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - AJJewsbury - 09 May 2013 04:46 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - sparkingchip - 09 May 2013 04:51 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - OMS - 09 May 2013 05:02 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - WiredScience - 09 May 2013 05:06 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - OMS - 09 May 2013 05:50 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - alancapon - 09 May 2013 06:01 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - Jaymack - 09 May 2013 06:14 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - rocknroll - 09 May 2013 06:19 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - perspicacious - 09 May 2013 06:41 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - OMS - 09 May 2013 07:06 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - ebee - 09 May 2013 07:14 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - sparkingchip - 09 May 2013 07:17 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - peteTLM - 10 May 2013 10:36 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - gkenyon - 12 May 2013 08:15 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - perspicacious - 12 May 2013 08:25 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - perspicacious - 12 May 2013 08:29 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - ebee - 12 May 2013 08:30 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - sparkingchip - 09 May 2013 05:09 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - mpg - 09 May 2013 05:13 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - Legh - 10 May 2013 11:17 AM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - sparkingchip - 10 May 2013 01:44 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - rocknroll - 10 May 2013 01:58 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - iie63674 - 10 May 2013 02:39 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - OMS - 10 May 2013 02:41 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - iie63674 - 10 May 2013 02:52 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - ebee - 10 May 2013 03:11 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - iie63674 - 10 May 2013 03:19 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - ebee - 10 May 2013 03:29 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - perspicacious - 10 May 2013 05:53 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - westfield6 - 10 May 2013 05:07 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - Legh - 10 May 2013 05:55 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - OMS - 10 May 2013 04:23 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - iie63674 - 13 May 2013 09:46 AM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - perspicacious - 13 May 2013 10:48 AM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - perspicacious - 10 May 2013 05:56 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - rocknroll - 10 May 2013 06:46 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - sparkingchip - 12 May 2013 10:06 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - ebee - 12 May 2013 10:15 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - AJJewsbury - 13 May 2013 11:07 AM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - iie63674 - 13 May 2013 02:38 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - iie63674 - 13 May 2013 04:40 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - rocknroll - 13 May 2013 05:14 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - Thripster - 13 May 2013 02:58 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - ebee - 13 May 2013 04:28 PM  
 BS 1363 Plug top   - AJJewsbury - 13 May 2013 05:17 PM  
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 09 May 2013 02:40 PM
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mpg

Posts: 14
Joined: 21 December 2006

Hello,

I was wondering what the general opinion is regarding max flex size for BS1363 plug tops.
Would anyone try 2.5mm 3 core flex?
In my opinion although the cores will fit the terminals and obviously the current carrying capacity of the cable is more than sufficient, the flex itself makes for a very tight fit and isn't good practice.

Thank you,

Marc.
 09 May 2013 03:25 PM
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Ricicle

Posts: 899
Joined: 23 October 2006

I have just this morning terminated a 3 core 2.5mm flex into a Duraplug plug. It's comfortable but no real problem. I don't think you could go any bigger. A lot depends on the moulding inside the plug as well as to the size of the cores you can dress in there.

-------------------------
Empty barrels make the most noise.
 09 May 2013 03:44 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

I think you will find the maximum conductor size is 1.5mm which happily carries in excess of the maximum load of a 13 amp plug top, so therefore you should not really being trying to get a 2.5mm into the plug top.

Andy
 09 May 2013 04:08 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
Joined: 23 March 2004

Provision shall be made for the entry and effective clamping without bending of 2-core and 3-core flexible cords for rewirable plugs as given in Table 11, Table 12, Table 13, Table 26 and Table 27 of BS 6500:2000, having nominal conductor cross-sectional areas not exceeding 1.5 mm2.

extracted from BS 1363-1:1995 and A4:2012

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 09 May 2013 04:24 PM
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Ricicle

Posts: 899
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Well that's new to me ! Are we suppose to own BS1363 and BS6500 now before wiring plugs ?

-------------------------
Empty barrels make the most noise.
 09 May 2013 04:58 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: Ricicle

Well that's new to me ! Are we suppose to own BS1363 and BS6500 now before wiring plugs ?


Nope - you just need to know that it's not designed to accept anything larger than 1.5mm2 x 3 core flex.

You can wire it in anything you like - I used to have a supply to a temporary shed that had a plug top on the end of a bit of 2.5mm2 T&E installed in a bit of spare wavin gas pipe under the lawn

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 09 May 2013 05:56 PM
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perspicacious

Posts: 8055
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"Well that's new to me ! Are we suppose to own BS1363 and BS6500 now before wiring plugs ?"

Fancy letting the PAT guys having one over on an electrician

CoP for In-service I&T of Electrical Equipment 15.10.1 covers the need to use BS EN 60309 plugs on 2.5 mm2.

Regards

BOD
 10 May 2013 10:33 AM
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iie63674

Posts: 111
Joined: 17 May 2006

Originally posted by: OMS

Provision shall be made for the entry and effective clamping without bending of 2-core and 3-core flexible cords for rewirable plugs as given in Table 11, Table 12, Table 13, Table 26 and Table 27 of BS 6500:2000, having nominal conductor cross-sectional areas not exceeding 1.5 mm2.



extracted from BS 1363-1:1995 and A4:2012



regards



OMS


I think that extract is being misunderstood. It does not say that the plug shall not accept a conductor greater than 1,5mm2, only that a plug shall be capable of accepting conductors up to and including 1,5mm2. It says nothing about the acceptability of 2,5mm2.
2,5mm2 flex is useful for rough-service extension leads - nothing to do with current-carrying capacity, just mechanical robustness. I have a few at home, with with 2,5 TRS and MK plugs.
 10 May 2013 10:46 AM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
Joined: 23 March 2004

I disagree

The Standard is quite clear that the plug must accept conductors not exceeding 1.5mm2.

It says nothing about larger conductors being accepted - if due to a particular make or manufacture, it's physically possible to deploy a larger conductor CSA (and the cord clamping remains effective) then clearly the product is being used outside of the requirements of the standards and thus the risk is with the person choosing to do that.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 10 May 2013 11:55 AM
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iie63674

Posts: 111
Joined: 17 May 2006

OMS, the standard, like most standards, sets minimum requirements. If a manufacturer chooses to exceed some of those minimum requirements he is free to do so, provided that all the normative provisions are met.
Are you saying that you think all the plugs that use a 'binding post' arrangement, where the conductor is wrapped around a threaded stud, are non-compliant?
 10 May 2013 12:35 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: iie63674

OMS, the standard, like most standards, sets minimum requirements. If a manufacturer chooses to exceed some of those minimum requirements he is free to do so, provided that all the normative provisions are met.

Are you saying that you think all the plugs that use a 'binding post' arrangement, where the conductor is wrapped around a threaded stud, are non-compliant?


I agree the standards set the minima, but what then when the plug top needs replacing with one by a manufacturer who has only met the minimum provision - the 2.5mm2 is now a problem - it's a minor problem on one plug top - it's more of in issue when you have a building full of them.

I've no problem with a product exceeding a standard - just that we shouldn't be saying that's OK, jus cos it happens to fit.

A plug top is designed to accept a 2 or 3 core cable withinin a defined group and not exceeding 1.5mm2 - to use anything else in terms of cable and CSA is clearly using the plug top outside that standard.

Take the case of a fatality when someone used an extension lead manufactured with a 2.5mm2 cable and a BS 1363 plug top - how/where would it go when the expert witness stood up and said the lead didn't comly with a standard and then sat down again - no further explanation required.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 10 May 2013 01:10 PM
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iie63674

Posts: 111
Joined: 17 May 2006

But OMS, in your fatality example the plug does comply with the standard! I agree it could be an interesting argument in a court, but in order to prove compliance the plug manufacturer would simply have to show that the plug could accept a cable with conductors that didn't exceed 1,5 mm2. The standard doesn't prohibit the acceptability of larger conductors, it is just silent on that subject.

I take your point about the possible need for replacement, and I can see how that could be a problem. I think most plugs on the market would accept a 2,5 mm2 conductor in the terminals, but the ability of the cable grip to accept a 3-core 2,5 mm2 is another matter.
 10 May 2013 01:24 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
Joined: 23 March 2004

and it's that silence that will generally prove to be the problem.

Look at it the other way - if the extension lead is the culprit, and the plugtop complies with BS 1363, can you see the plug top manufacturer rushing to be a co defendant with the lead manufacturer or the individual who made it up on site.

On the other side of the electrical fence, the socket outlet also has defined conductor sizes - but to pick on one manufacturer like MK thier product has terminal capacity to accept more conductors than the standard requires. I would take a view that say 4 x 2.5mm2 conductors into a terminal is a noncompliance as the socket design by the manufacturing standard permits a maximum of 3 x 2.5mm2.

I would always make my initial view that installation standards require equipment to be in accordance with thier relevant product standards - if they are deployed outside of that standard then the installation standard cannot be complied with. You could take this view upwards in say PUWER - if the company supplied that 2.5mm2 extension lead and there is an acident then where would that go ?

I'm not saying don't do it - that's the choice for the relevant person - just that the standard is based on specific criteria - varying from that may be a problem, particularly if we take the silence on an issue into account - the assumption being it's disallowed unless allowed.

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 10 May 2013 01:14 PM
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ectophile

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Originally posted by: OMS
Take the case of a fatality when someone used an extension lead manufactured with a 2.5mm2 cable and a BS 1363 plug top - how/where would it go when the expert witness stood up and said the lead didn't comly with a standard and then sat down again - no further explanation required.



Regards



OMS



Assuming that the manufacturer has taken the trouble to source a plug that is capable of accepting a 2.5mm2 cable, and they have confirmed this with the plug's manufacturer, then what part of the complete assembly would not comply with standards?

-------------------------
S P Barker BSc PhD IEng MIET
 10 May 2013 01:17 PM
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iie63674

Posts: 111
Joined: 17 May 2006

Originally posted by: ectophile

Originally posted by: OMS

Take the case of a fatality when someone used an extension lead manufactured with a 2.5mm2 cable and a BS 1363 plug top - how/where would it go when the expert witness stood up and said the lead didn't comly with a standard and then sat down again - no further explanation required.







Regards







OMS






Assuming that the manufacturer has taken the trouble to source a plug that is capable of accepting a 2.5mm2 cable, and they have confirmed this with the plug's manufacturer, then what part of the complete assembly would not comply with standards?

And why would it be an issue, unless the use of a 2,5mm2 conductor had in some way contributed to the incident?
Actually the larger conductor (given the caveat about confirmation by the manufacturer) should be more safe; more material for the cable clamp to grip on, better heat dissipation, greater mechanical strength...
 09 May 2013 04:46 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 17795
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Are we suppose to own BS1363 and BS6500 now before wiring plugs ?

I think BSI would prefer you to own the complete set of all standards before you get out of bed - how do you expect to safely cross the room without a knowledge of BS 5229:1975 ?
- Andy.
 09 May 2013 04:51 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
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Now then having trained as a electrician at the old Kidderminster college there was a carpet loom in the adjoining workshop, so we had all these standards in the library in the carpet section.

Our one electrical lecturer did his apprenticeship in Brintons carpet factory and spent every Friday afternoon hoovering fluff out of motors as part of his training.
 09 May 2013 05:02 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

Now then having trained as a electrician at the old Kidderminster college there was a carpet loom in the adjoining workshop, so we had all these standards in the library in the carpet section.



Our one electrical lecturer did his apprenticeship in Brintons carpet factory and spent every Friday afternoon hoovering fluff out of motors as part of his training.


After fluff removal did he then engage with BS 7390:1990

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 09 May 2013 05:06 PM
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WiredScience

Posts: 358
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I've just spotted a 2.5 twin and earth stuffed into a BS1363 plug top, (power to the shed) while quoting for some work today, so the maximum capacity seems to be limited only by ones skills with a lasso....
 09 May 2013 05:50 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: WiredScience

I've just spotted a 2.5 twin and earth stuffed into a BS1363 plug top, (power to the shed) while quoting for some work today, so the maximum capacity seems to be limited only by ones skills with a lasso....


Sounds like my old pitch then - suprised that shed's still there though

Right, off to tarnish me spurs - so don't come the cowboy with me sonny Jim -

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 09 May 2013 06:01 PM
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alancapon

Posts: 7492
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In theory, a Portable Appliance Test on anything fitted with a 13A plug and anything larger than 1.5mm² cable is a fail.

Regards,

Alan.
 09 May 2013 06:14 PM
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Jaymack

Posts: 5571
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It's possible to fit 1.5²mm twin and earth into a 13A plug, such is the inginuity of the great unwashed. I've had this a few times!

Retards
 09 May 2013 06:19 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
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What about appliances that have a 2 core 2.5 cable either with a fitted or moulded plug from the manufacturers.

Does this not conform to the min cable diameter of 11mm and the fact that the plug is not overcrowded as it would be with 3 x 2.5's

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 09 May 2013 06:41 PM
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perspicacious

Posts: 8055
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"What about appliances that have a 2 core 2.5 cable either with a fitted or moulded plug from the manufacturers."

These too appear to be excluded from the extract OMS posted.

The only time I've seen what appears to be 2.5 mm2 3c in a BS 1363 plug (that wasn't DIY) is on the modular bus bar under floor 6 m or so leads that terminate to a multiway IEC block. I can't quite see the need for 2.5 cable when they are fitted with a 13 A fuse (presumably rather than the 6 mm bolt option)

Regards

BOD

Provision shall be made for the entry and effective clamping without bending of 2-core and 3-core flexible cords for rewirable plugs as given in Table 11, Table 12, Table 13, Table 26 and Table 27 of BS 6500:2000, having nominal conductor cross-sectional areas not exceeding 1.5 mm2.

extracted from BS 1363-1:1995 and A4:2012
 09 May 2013 07:06 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
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I'm pretty certain that the standard doesn't allow for conductors bigger than 1.5mm2 - both 2c and 3c in accordance with the tables listed above.

Just for fun, I rejected about 600 of those leads you describe BOD on the grounds that they were assembled from parts being outside of the product standard requirements.

It went around the houses for a few weeks until the client persuaded me to accept them - and no doubt caused a bit of consternation in the suppliers and manufacturers camps

No brainer really - you've supplied me kit that doesn't comply with the product standard - take it away and sent me kit that does. Once the client accepted it, it wasn't my drama - and my reservations over the derrogation were plain for all to see anyway

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 09 May 2013 07:14 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6735
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"2 core AND 3 core" ?

Hmmmmmm

I would have thought 2 core OR 3core , not AND

Fancy putting two flexes onto the same plugtop!

Whatever next?



-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 09 May 2013 07:17 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
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Nice use of a plugtop

The plugtop at the front has 1.5mm three core SWA coming out of it, the "electrician" said it was expensive cable, but had to be used for safety reasons!
 10 May 2013 10:36 PM
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peteTLM

Posts: 3755
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Originally posted by: alancapon

In theory, a Portable Appliance Test on anything fitted with a 13A plug and anything larger than 1.5mm² cable is a fail.



Regards,



Alan.


Im sure my 3kva 110v transformer has 2.5mm flex on it from the factory, and of course a 13A plug.

Id guess its 2.5 to provide a more robust lead for a harsher than normal environment.



My favourite plug i ever saw was a 6mm lead on a 10kw industrial dishwasher wedged into a 13A plug. At Zs's favourite job

-------------------------
----------------------------------------
Lack of planning on your part doesn't make it an emergency on mine....

Every man has to know his limitations- Dirty Harry
 12 May 2013 08:15 PM
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gkenyon

Posts: 5354
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2.5 sq mm cable in a BS1363 plug is plain wrong. There's no way of knowing that the terminal will maintain mechanical integrity for a reasonable length of time (moulded plug of unknown design excepted of course, but see next statement on Plugs & Sockets Regs).

Simple - Where a BS1363 plug is intended as a matter of course, then the Plugs & Sockets Regulations apply. This must facilitate the replacement of a plug in accordance with Table 2 of BS1363-1, in case Manufacturers' Instructions are lost. Unfortunately, Table 2 only goes up to 1.5 sq mm.

The alternative for equipment that's not considered "domestic and similar", would be either IEC60309-2 16 A (if intended for connection to "fixed accessory" or IEC60320 C20, C22 or C24 if intended for connection to a "PDU".

Not sure there's too much of a problem using a BS1363 plug to IEC60309-2 16A socket where required?

-------------------------
EUR ING Graham Kenyon CEng MIET TechIOSH
G Kenyon Technology Ltd

Web-Site: www.gkenyontech.com
 12 May 2013 08:25 PM
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perspicacious

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"Not sure there's too much of a problem using a BS1363 plug to IEC60309-2 16A socket where required?"

Well I'm sure it must be OK as thousands of "shed pullers" use them when their "tin tent" is at home and needs power

Regards

BAD
 12 May 2013 08:29 PM
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perspicacious

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Which came first?

BS 1363 or 721.55.2.6 with its table 721

Regards

BAD
 12 May 2013 08:30 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6735
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The Egg!



-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 09 May 2013 05:09 PM
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sparkingchip

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"After fluff removal did he then engage with BS 7390:1990 "

Email my wife with a copy please.
 09 May 2013 05:13 PM
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mpg

Posts: 14
Joined: 21 December 2006

Thanks for the replies!

I have today emailed MK technical dept and they also state the max size is 1.5mm for there BS1363 plug range.

Regards,

Marc.
 10 May 2013 11:17 AM
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Legh

Posts: 4427
Joined: 17 December 2004

I had a similar dispute after PATing in a pub. The coffee machine and grinder supplied on a lease had nice thick 3-core rubber cables attached to 13A BS 1363 plugs. As you might guess the cable clamp wasn't used. The company was called by the tenant landlord and after their technicians had made a visit nothing else was done.

So I expect they considered that BS really did stand for BS.

The most i could do was notify the landlord and submit my invoice.

Legh

-------------------------

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

de-avatared
 10 May 2013 01:44 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
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Why would you want to get a 2.5mm flex into a 13 amp plug top in the first place? If the appliance needs a flex that size the plug top doesn't have the capacity for it anyway.

Are you going to tell me it's because of the volts drop on a huge extension lead? What other possible explanation can there be?

Andy
 10 May 2013 01:58 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
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Okay I waited a bit, but now time to upset the forum regulation police with items in possession;

2 x LV lighting transformers 10 x 12V, heavy duty sealed for outdoor use black silicone rubber cable containing 2 x 2.5 tinned copper conductors into a moulded plug, with BS conformities.

1 x stand alone double insulated circular halogen patio heater white flex with 2 x 2.5 conductors into a white moulded plug. BS kitemark.

1 x large electric chainsaw double insulated with 2 x 2.5 conductors into a moulded plug.

And now the 'piece de resistance'

1x 3kva 110V transformer 3 core 2.5 cable into a moulded plug.
1x Worx heavy duty chipper 3 core 2.5 cable into a moulded plug.

So something went wrong there eh!!!!!

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 10 May 2013 02:39 PM
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iie63674

Posts: 111
Joined: 17 May 2006

Andy, voltage drop might be one reason, but the main reason is mechanical strength.
 10 May 2013 02:41 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
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For sure it went wrong Rock - the company putting the CE mark on the products for a start.

I looked into this a while back - the appliance is a "standard" design for the euromarket - it's just us awkward sods across the channel to them use the BS 1363 plug (unless you count the german penchant for using them as inlet devics for portable PV systems) - everyone else tends towards an unfused pattern plug with usually 16A circuit protection - so 2.5mm2 flex is not unreasonable - and the Euro's don't understand our wiring practices at all.

regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 10 May 2013 02:52 PM
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iie63674

Posts: 111
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Originally posted by: OMS

For sure it went wrong Rock - the company putting the CE mark on the products for a start.

regards



OMS


And which EHSR, of which Directive, do you think is not complied with by a 2,5 mm2 cable?
 10 May 2013 03:11 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6735
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Hoy!

Stop saying "2,5 mm2 cable" that is incorrect.
Say "2.5 mm2 cable" that is correct.
There is such a thing as a decimal point.
There is not such a thing as a decimal comma!



-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 10 May 2013 03:19 PM
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iie63674

Posts: 111
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Oh No! Now I've upset another of the forum regulars!

However, since we're discussing standards, here's an extract from the ISO/IEC Directives (Rules for the structure and drafting of International
Standards):

6.6.8 Representation of numbers and numerical values
6.6.8.1 The decimal sign shall be a comma on the line in all language versions.

I can't tell you when that was agreed, my records on this subject only go back to 1992. Do try to keep up!
 10 May 2013 03:29 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6735
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You have not really upset me.
I was only Joking.
Mathematically it is a point but by convention in order to differentiate between mm and inches is often used for very sound reasons (done so meeself loadsa times in an engineering background).



-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 10 May 2013 05:53 PM
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perspicacious

Posts: 8055
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"6.6.8 Representation of numbers and numerical values
6.6.8.1 The decimal sign shall be a comma on the line in all language versions."


Isn't there a touch of irony there?

Regards.,

BOD
 10 May 2013 05:07 PM
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westfield6

Posts: 210
Joined: 12 October 2007

Originally posted by: ebee

Hoy!



Stop saying "2,5 mm2 cable" that is incorrect.

Say "2.5 mm2 cable" that is correct.

There is such a thing as a decimal point.

There is not such a thing as a decimal comma!





And while we are about it stop calling plugs plug tops. A plug top is the lid or cover held on the plug with one or two screws.
 10 May 2013 05:55 PM
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Legh

Posts: 4427
Joined: 17 December 2004

Originally posted by: ebee

Hoy!

Stop saying "2,5 mm2 cable" that is incorrect.

Say "2.5 mm2 cable" that is correct.

There is such a thing as a decimal point.

There is not such a thing as a decimal comma!

[IMG][/IMG]


We know by now that a friday afternoon comma is pointless ! ......

Legh



-------------------------

http://www.leghrichardson.co.uk

de-avatared
 10 May 2013 04:23 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
Joined: 23 March 2004

Originally posted by: iie63674

Originally posted by: OMS

For sure it went wrong Rock - the company putting the CE mark on the products for a start.

regards

OMS


And which EHSR, of which Directive, do you think is not complied with by a 2,5 mm2 cable?


I'll open the bidding with 1.5.4 of The Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations 2008 and go from there to the LV directive -

Oh No! Now I've upset another of the forum regulars!


Nahh - it's just a debate - I don't offend that easy

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 13 May 2013 09:46 AM
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iie63674

Posts: 111
Joined: 17 May 2006

Originally posted by: OMS

Originally posted by: iie63674

Originally posted by: OMS

For sure it went wrong Rock - the company putting the CE mark on the products for a start.

regards

OMS


And which EHSR, of which Directive, do you think is not complied with by a 2,5 mm2 cable?

I'll open the bidding with 1.5.4 of The Supply of Machinery (Safety) Regulations 2008 and go from there to the LV directive -
Oh No! Now I've upset another of the forum regulars!


Nahh - it's just a debate - I don't offend that easy

Regards
OMS

1.5.4. Errors of fitting
Errors likely to be made when fitting or refitting certain parts which could be a source of risk must be made impossible by the design and construction of such parts or, failing this, by information given on the parts themselves and/or their housings. The same information must be given on moving parts and/or their housings where the direction of movement needs to be known in order to avoid a risk.
Where necessary, the instructions must give further information on these risks.
Where a faulty connection can be the source of risk, incorrect connections must be made impossible by design or, failing this, by information given on the elements to be connected and, where appropriate, on the means of connection.

My take on that would be that if 2,5mm2 cable could be a source of risk, then the plug manufacturer must design them so that such cable cannot be fitted, or where that is not possible mark the plug to discourage 2,5 mm2. I could understand if you'd suggested 1.5.1, but then you'd have to identify a hazard that could be caused by using 2,5 instead of 1,5.
I'm not sure where you think the LVD applies, since domestic plugs and sockets are specifically excluded from the LVD.
 13 May 2013 10:48 AM
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perspicacious

Posts: 8055
Joined: 18 April 2006

Perhaps a leaf out of the 110 V book where if you buy a tool with a rating exceeding 1710 W, it comes without a fitted plug?

Of course, the user on buying a 110 V 2000 W 9" grinder fits a 32 A plug as the last time he had his 1800 W saw etc PATted, the tester failed it for there being a 16 A plug on it............

Regards

BOD
 10 May 2013 05:56 PM
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perspicacious

Posts: 8055
Joined: 18 April 2006

"2 x LV lighting transformers 10 x 12V, heavy duty sealed for outdoor use black silicone rubber cable containing 2 x 2.5 tinned copper conductors into a moulded plug, with BS conformities.
1 x stand alone double insulated circular halogen patio heater white flex with 2 x 2.5 conductors into a white moulded plug. BS kitemark.
1 x large electric chainsaw double insulated with 2 x 2.5 conductors into a moulded plug.
And now the 'piece de resistance'
1x 3kva 110V transformer 3 core 2.5 cable into a moulded plug.
1x Worx heavy duty chipper 3 core 2.5 cable into a moulded plug.
So something went wrong there eh!!!!!"


Who carried out the PAT on them?

Regards

BOD
 10 May 2013 06:46 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
Joined: 03 October 2005

Originally posted by: perspicacious

"2 x LV lighting transformers 10 x 12V, heavy duty sealed for outdoor use black silicone rubber cable containing 2 x 2.5 tinned copper conductors into a moulded plug, with BS conformities.

1 x stand alone double insulated circular halogen patio heater white flex with 2 x 2.5 conductors into a white moulded plug. BS kitemark.

1 x large electric chainsaw double insulated with 2 x 2.5 conductors into a moulded plug.

And now the 'piece de resistance'

1x 3kva 110V transformer 3 core 2.5 cable into a moulded plug.

1x Worx heavy duty chipper 3 core 2.5 cable into a moulded plug.

So something went wrong there eh!!!!!"


Who carried out the PAT on them?

Regards

BOD


Really, now why would I waste £3 on PAT 6 items and spend all morning removing the tape from the 11 taped joints on the chainsaw lead for inspection.

regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 12 May 2013 10:06 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

"BS 1363 or 721.55.2.6 with its table 72"

Off the top of my head BS1363 in the 1950's with a maximum design load of a 3.0Kw heater for a socket outlet, designed in conjunction with domestic socket ring circuits that could have a maximum load of two 3.0Kw heaters per ring circuit with there typically being one circuit and two heaters per dwelling.

Andy
 12 May 2013 10:15 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6735
Joined: 02 December 2004

Pretty much sums up the way I remember it too!

Those 3KW fan heaters, where did they go?

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 13 May 2013 11:07 AM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 17795
Joined: 13 August 2003

Not sure there's too much of a problem using a BS1363 plug to IEC60309-2 16A socket where required?"

What about the requirement for sockets in domestic situations to be shuttered?

Stop saying "2,5 mm2 cable" that is incorrect.
Say "2.5 mm2 cable" that is correct.
There is such a thing as a decimal point.
There is not such a thing as a decimal comma!

Yes, but if we're being properly pedantic, a full stop (.) isn't a decimal point either. The correct character for a decimal point (in the UK at least) is a middle-dot.

- Andy.

(edited as the forum software software filtered out my middle dot )
 13 May 2013 02:38 PM
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iie63674

Posts: 111
Joined: 17 May 2006

Andy,

I believe the interpunct (middle dot) was replaced full th efull stop in ISO 1000: 1981, but I threw out my copy a couple of weeks ago so can't check!
 13 May 2013 04:40 PM
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iie63674

Posts: 111
Joined: 17 May 2006

Originally posted by: iie63674

Andy,



I believe the interpunct (middle dot) was replaced full th efull stop in ISO 1000: 1981, but I threw out my copy a couple of weeks ago so can't check!


Oh for an edit function!
I meant of course "replaced by the full stop", which was later replaced by the comma. BSI seem to have adopted the comma in the early 1980s.
The interpunct was dropped because its use could be confused with the mathematical operator for multiplication. The 'point on the line' was used in many countries as a separator in large numbers such as 1 000 000.
 13 May 2013 05:14 PM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
Joined: 03 October 2005

2 · 5
2 · 5
2 · 5
2 · 5
2 · 5
2 · 5
2 · 5
2 · 5
2 · 5
2 · 5


regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 13 May 2013 02:58 PM
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Thripster

Posts: 811
Joined: 22 August 2006

I'm sure that some enterprising corporation will come up with a training course on the use of the full stop. And this will be necessary as they will have carried out costly research, at the tax payers expense, which they have chosen to conclude, shows them that human beings cannot differentiate or make sense of a statement, phrase or equation which hasn't got the mark prescribed by themselves. This is likely to be because they think that everybody is as dim as themselves and helps them to justify a non productive existence. At which point, I'll conclude my post with a ♣

Regards
 13 May 2013 04:28 PM
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ebee

Posts: 6735
Joined: 02 December 2004

Now is that a "Full Spades" or a "Decimal spades" ?

AJJ.
I stand corrected - decimal point not full stop or comma

-------------------------
Regards,
Ebee (M I S P N)

Knotted cables cause Lumpy Lektrik
 13 May 2013 05:17 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 17795
Joined: 13 August 2003

Andy,

I believe the interpunct (middle dot) was replaced full th efull stop in ISO 1000: 1981

Ah, that's possible. I recall the 'centre point' (middle dot) bit from school - probably a few years before that date.

I stand (sit) corrected.

- Andy.
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