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Topic Title: Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs
Topic Summary: Overheating plug for a electric car charger
Created On: 09 February 2012 08:23 AM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 09 February 2012 08:23 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 08:52 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - spinlondon - 09 February 2012 09:13 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 09 February 2012 09:18 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - spinlondon - 09 February 2012 10:04 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - broadgage - 09 February 2012 10:21 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 09 February 2012 10:43 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 09 February 2012 10:48 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 09 February 2012 10:51 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - Ricicle - 09 February 2012 10:23 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - Angram - 09 February 2012 10:32 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 09 February 2012 10:36 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 09 February 2012 11:03 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 09 February 2012 11:17 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - zeeper - 13 February 2012 07:25 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 13 February 2012 07:48 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 13 February 2012 08:06 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 13 February 2012 09:06 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - alancapon - 13 February 2012 09:59 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - jcm256 - 13 February 2012 10:15 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - alancapon - 13 February 2012 10:31 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 09 February 2012 09:29 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 09 February 2012 09:36 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 09 February 2012 09:45 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 09 February 2012 10:38 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 09:39 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 10:22 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 10:46 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 11:28 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 11:32 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 09 February 2012 11:41 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 11:35 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 09 February 2012 11:40 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - AJJewsbury - 09 February 2012 12:02 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 09 February 2012 03:38 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 09 February 2012 03:59 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 09 February 2012 06:17 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - AdrianWint - 09 February 2012 06:24 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - AdrianWint - 09 February 2012 06:31 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - Jaymack - 09 February 2012 07:02 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 10 February 2012 09:32 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 10 February 2012 11:48 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 09:01 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 09:19 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 09:35 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkiemike - 09 February 2012 09:56 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 10:09 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - mep - 09 February 2012 11:18 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - alancapon - 09 February 2012 11:30 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - AJJewsbury - 10 February 2012 11:01 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - mep - 11 February 2012 10:34 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - Jaymack - 11 February 2012 11:27 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 09 February 2012 11:58 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 10 February 2012 08:02 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - alancapon - 10 February 2012 08:06 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 10 February 2012 08:15 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - broadgage - 11 February 2012 03:07 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - perspicacious - 10 February 2012 08:11 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 10 February 2012 08:18 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - alancapon - 10 February 2012 09:09 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - sparkingchip - 10 February 2012 09:30 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - AJJewsbury - 13 February 2012 12:01 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - AJJewsbury - 13 February 2012 12:02 AM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - martinwinlow - 24 May 2015 05:51 PM  
 Test Current and Duration for BS1363 13A plugs   - martinwinlow - 24 May 2015 06:14 PM  
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 09 February 2012 08:23 AM
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sparkiemike

Posts: 1660
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Does any body know what the test current is for a 13A plug and the duration of the test is?

I have a client that has an electric car, it is charged from a single phase 13 socket and plug arrangement. It takes about 7-9 hours for a full charge. A clamp meter shows 12.1A being drawn.

He has had to change the 13A plug several times due to overheating. We have tried different manufacturers (MK and Master) and used the ruggerised type. The socket outlet has also been replaced.

Using a 16A C-form plug and socket is not really an option because the charging posts in the city are mostly 13A, and have a locking mechanism to prevent theft of the charging cable. The c-form plugs with adapters would make the cable vunerable to theft.

So is the 13A plug and socket suitable for this application?
Has anybody else come across this, and suggestions welcome?
 09 February 2012 08:52 AM
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sparkingchip

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Ask the guys who wrote the book!

http://www.theiet.org/forums/f...yword1=car%20charging

Andy
 09 February 2012 09:13 AM
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spinlondon

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The test current is 14A for a single, 20A for a double(14A + 6A), and the duration is 4-8 hours.
Maximum temperature should be no more than 52ºC.
 09 February 2012 09:18 AM
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sparkiemike

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Originally posted by: spinlondon

The test current is 14A for a single, 20A for a double(14A + 6A), and the duration is 4-8 hours.

Maximum temperature should be no more than 52ºC.


That appears to be for a socket.
 09 February 2012 10:04 AM
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spinlondon

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Originally posted by: sparkiemike
Originally posted by: spinlondon
The test current is 14A for a single, 20A for a double(14A + 6A), and the duration is 4-8 hours.
Maximum temperature should be no more than 52ºC.


That appears to be for a socket.


The test is conducted by plugging 13A plugs into the socket-outlets.
Wouldn't be much use, if the plugs failed to comply.
 09 February 2012 10:21 AM
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broadgage

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IMHO 13 amp plugs and sockets are not suitable for continual use at, or very close to, full load.
Perhaps for this reason, very few modern domestic appliances use more than about 10 amps/2.4KW
The main exception being kettles which of course are used only for a few minutes.

Would it be possible to obtain a second charging lead for the car ? use the one with a 13 amp plug when charging from a public charging point, and a second lead fitted with a 15 amp or 16 amp plug when charging at home.

If this cant be done, then I would suggest a metalclad 13 amp socket, as these seem to be better able to disipate heat.
Use a good qaulity 13 amp plug and pay exceedingly careful attention to the tighness of the connections in the plug.
Take care that the fuse is a reputable one, and a tight fit.

Is the battery charger adjustable ? could the input current be limited to say 10 amps ? that should solve the problem if the longer charging time is acceptable.

As a last resort, I have been known to solder the flex to the plug terminals, and to solder the fuse in place. This avoids any even slightly high resistance connections and results in much cooler running.
It is however contary to regulations as equpment is being used other than as instructed.
 09 February 2012 10:43 AM
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sparkiemike

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Originally posted by: broadgage

Would it be possible to obtain a second charging lead for the car ? use the one with a 13 amp plug when charging from a public charging point, and a second lead fitted with a 15 amp or 16 amp plug when charging at home.


Already made that suggestion and at £600 it not an option!

If this cant be done, then I would suggest a metalclad 13 amp socket, as these seem to be better able to disipate heat.


It is a MK metal clad single socket outlet (in a cool garage)

Use a good qaulity 13 amp plug and pay exceedingly careful attention to the tighness of the connections in the plug.


Both the master and MK plugs seem to be robust


Thanks for the suggestions

Edited: 09 February 2012 at 10:53 AM by sparkiemike
 09 February 2012 10:48 AM
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perspicacious

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"Already made that suggestion and at £600 it not an option!"

How about using ordinary brass , not solid gold, contacts and do it for £200

Regards

BOD
 09 February 2012 10:51 AM
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sparkiemike

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Originally posted by: perspicacious

How about using ordinary brass , not solid gold, contacts and do it for £200


That was just for the lead - not for the electrical installation - but I will put it to the dealer
 09 February 2012 10:23 AM
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Ricicle

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I have had this problem with a Bain Marie in our site canteen that took just over 12 amps constantly. After trying different combinations of plugs and sockets the issue still arises where the plug runs hot and eventually burns up taking the socket with it.
I am resigned to the fact I will have to change this for a 16A ceeform plug and socket.

-------------------------
Empty barrels make the most noise.
 09 February 2012 10:32 AM
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Angram

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The Winter Wiring Matters, on vehicle charging points, seems to envisage 13A plugs and sockets.

MK, I think do a surface mount 2way socket (white) which is supposed to provide better contact arrangement - I think.

Anyway it would be a useful experiment to see if the extra cost is justified!

An adapter cable for the city ?

Is the load higher when the battery is well down?

Contactum 13A socket may be better build quality.
 09 February 2012 10:36 AM
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perspicacious

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"MK, I think do a surface mount 2way socket (white) which is supposed to provide better contact arrangement - I think."

What is the origin of the initialism MK?

Regards

BOD
 09 February 2012 11:03 AM
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sparkiemike

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Originally posted by: Angram
MK, I think do a surface mount 2way socket (white) which is supposed to provide better contact arrangement - I think.


Some specific details would be apprecaited.
 09 February 2012 11:17 AM
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perspicacious

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There appears to be a problem with the link to the DNO notification as it came up "unsafe".

Regards

BOD

http://www.energynetworks.org/...le-infrastructure.html
 13 February 2012 07:25 AM
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zeeper

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Using a 16A C-form plug and socket is not really an option because the charging posts in the city are mostly 13A


Just use a BS4343 16A at home and an ADAPTOR for when hes out and about.
 13 February 2012 07:48 AM
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sparkiemike

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Originally posted by: zeeper
Using a 16A C-form plug and socket is not really an option because the charging posts in the city are mostly 13A

Just use a BS4343 16A at home and an ADAPTOR for when hes out and about.


Thanks, I am aware of the adapters. The way it has been explained to me; the charging stations on the streets have a mechanism to lock the 13A plug into the socket - this deters people from removing the charging lead - at £600 it is an expensive item to replace. If one of the adapters were used then the lead could be easily disconnected from the cee form plug and socket.
 13 February 2012 08:06 AM
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perspicacious

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"Thanks, I am aware of the adapters. The way it has been explained to me; the charging stations on the streets have a mechanism to lock the 13A plug into the socket - this deters people from removing the charging lead - at £600 it is an expensive item to replace. If one of the adapters were used then the lead could be easily disconnected from the cee form plug and socket."

The guide shows three cases for connections.
A) Charging cable permanently attached to vehicle
B) Detachable charging cable
C) Charging cable permanently attached to the charging equipment (tethered cable)

If manufacturer economics/design opts for B, why not incorporate a locking mechanism in the vehicle connector end?

Regards

BOD
 13 February 2012 09:06 AM
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sparkiemike

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I agree, the whole thing seems a bodge to accommodate the 13A plug and socket, despite ring circuits not being suitable. Probably due to the lack of infrastructure when this fledgling technology started to take off.

Considering the car is subsidised with a £5K "plug in grant" and the MiEV costs £23K (incl grant) you would have thought that the Code of Practice would have been published in time (and not recommended 13A plugs) and to get the grant you would have to install a charging point fit for purpose in the UK, and the street charging points would have all conformed to the same standard.

If you can afford £23K for a runabout then the few hundred quid for a suitable charging point should be within your budget.

Edited: 13 February 2012 at 09:12 AM by sparkiemike
 13 February 2012 09:59 AM
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alancapon

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We have had an electric car at our offices until a few months ago, as we installed a charging point for some of the "visitor" spaces. What is odd about the charging cables coming with a 13A mains plug, is that the end that fits into the car (on the one we had certainly) had a blue ceeform connector that plugged into the fuel filler cap! From memory, I don't recall anything special looking about the lead, other than it was coiled to ensure it remained at a convenient tripping height.

Regards,

Alan.
 13 February 2012 10:15 AM
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jcm256

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This news is from Scotland today, are the socket pins on the car or the socket, difficult to tell. Of course, the cars will not be UK, all the green revenue flows out overseas.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/t...ct_to_expand_1_2113759
 13 February 2012 10:31 AM
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alancapon

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I believe the pins were on the car. It still looks odd with a cable in the fuel filler though!

Regards,

Alan.
 09 February 2012 09:29 AM
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perspicacious

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Well Annex A on p55 of the IET CoP for EV charging equipment installation that finally arrived in the post Tuesday, only shows 3 types of charging connector, Yazaki, Mennekes and EV plug alliance connector, none of which look anything like the 13 A and 16 A discussed above.

For domestic installations, unless particular arrangements have been made with the electricity supplier, demand must not exceed 32 A.

PME requires special consideration.

There is a DNO notification form to complete.

I haven't taken it all in yet, but there's a lot more to it than installing a 13 A "weatherproof" socket-outlet

Regards

BOD
 09 February 2012 09:36 AM
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sparkiemike

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That might be so BOD, but the car dealership is supplying these vehicles with a charging cable with a 13A plug, the owner has a garage and simply plugs it into an existing socket.

This seem to be a normal arragement, and to quote from Andy's link

In most cases, EVs can be charged from a standard electric socket, so businesses or individuals can recharge them at their own premises and homes.
 09 February 2012 09:45 AM
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perspicacious

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"but the car dealership is supplying these vehicles with a charging cable with a 13A plug, the owner has a garage and simply plugs it into an existing socket."

They are hardly likely to dissuade sales by advising that the customer needs to spend £x on an installation to be able to charge the product

This sounds like the sort of case I enjoy getting involved with by asking the dealer all sorts of initially, innocent questions and then having got all the ammunition from the dealer, turn it round and fire at him

Regards

BOD
 09 February 2012 10:38 AM
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sparkiemike

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Having a read of BS_1363-1 (for 13A plugs), it says

The test current as specified in Table 2 shall be passed through the plug and through a load connected to the flexible cord for a minimum continuous period of 4 h or longer until stability is reached with a maximum duration of 8 h, stability being taken as less than 1 K rise within 1 h


Just so my understanding is clear does that mean if the temp stops rising then it is possible they only test for 4 hours, the assumption being that it will not continue to rise if used for a longer duration?
 09 February 2012 09:39 AM
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sparkingchip

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 09 February 2012 10:22 AM
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sparkingchip

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A quick Google and it looks like sparkiemike is right http://www.electriccarsite.co....ic-car-charging-points it even has a nice picture of a post with a 13 amp socket.

I did get as far as looking at the draft code of practice and as Bod said above that indicates a different requirement.

I do believe that electricians are supposed to have a financial windfall installing chargers for electric cars, that won't happen if you can plug them into any old 13 amp outlet, will it!

Andy
 09 February 2012 10:46 AM
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sparkingchip

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Wouldn't the problem with a charger be in the first four hours with the load decreasing?

Andy
 09 February 2012 11:28 AM
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sparkingchip

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I don't live in the right location, however there must be money to be made renting out your drive with the add on benefit of providing charging facilities for a electric car.

Andy
 09 February 2012 11:32 AM
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sparkingchip

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I just wondered if there are two settings on the charger slow and fast?

Andy
 09 February 2012 11:41 AM
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perspicacious

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Typical EV has 24 kWh capacity so you can work out over an 8 hour period what the mains current is likely to be.

Regards

BOD
 09 February 2012 11:35 AM
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sparkingchip

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Yep! The Nissan leaf has two charging rates, 10 amps and 16 amps

http://www.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/...charging-battery.html

Andy
 09 February 2012 11:40 AM
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sparkiemike

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 09 February 2012 12:02 PM
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AJJewsbury

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What is the origin of the initialism MK?

Multi Kontact comes to mind for some reason...
- Andy.
 09 February 2012 03:38 PM
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perspicacious

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Very close Andy

"MK" are the initials of "Multy-Kontact" - a name coined to signify "many points of contact" the salient feature of our pioneer spring-clip socket patented in 1919

Regards

BOD
 09 February 2012 03:59 PM
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perspicacious

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Battery charging from a normal domestic electricity supply is achieved via an on-board charger which converts mains AC voltage to a suitable charging voltage for the traction battery. A full charge from at or near empty can be achieved in around 7 hours. i-MiEV is supplied with a dedicated 5-metre domestic charging cable (N.B. A conventional extension cable must never be used!) The normal charging socket is located on the rear right-hand side of the vehicle.

i-MiEV is supplied with a dedicated 5-metre domestic charging cable. Q1) Is this pre-fitted with a moulded on 13 A plug?
Q2) If not, who fitted it?

i-MiEV is easy to charge by using a rapid charger system or a standard 13A 240V mains supply.
Quick and convenient
Rapid charging points are going to start appearing in locations in and around major conurbations. Conveniently located in places such as shopping centres, supermarkets, and public car parks, rapid charging points will allow an 80% charge from empty in just 30 minutes.
Charging from a 13A 240V supply is already widely available in key urban areas and is of course how most users will charge i-MiEV from their household electricity supply. The network of charging points in urban areas is rapidly expanding to meet the demand of EV driver, you can locate current charging points by going to www.ev-network.org.uk or www.pod-point.com
i-MiEV comes with an on-board charger ready to accept a 13A 240 volt supply so it's just a case of connecting i-MiEV to the power source with the charge connector cable supplied with the vehicle. When charging from a 13A 240 volt supply i-MiEV will charge itself from completely flat to 100% in approximately 7 hours.


Charging from a 13A 240V supply is already widely available in key urban areas and is of course how most users will charge i-MiEV from their household electricity supply.
Q3) Assuming that Q1 is no, where in their instructions does it state that a 13 A plug is suitable?

A conventional extension cable must never be used!
Q4) This suggests to me that a dedicated 13 A supply capable of running at 13 A for 7 hours is required within 5 m of the car. Is a conventional 13 A plug and socket outlet suitable?
Q5) If so, is it appropriate to take this off a standard rfc considering Appendix 15 Fig 15A (ii)?

Regards

BOD
 09 February 2012 06:17 PM
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sparkiemike

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Originally posted by: perspicacious
i-MiEV is supplied with a dedicated 5-metre domestic charging cable. Q1) Is this pre-fitted with a moulded on 13 A plug?
Q2) If not, who fitted it?

As far as I am aware it came with a 13A plug.
Charging from a 13A 240V supply is already widely available in key urban areas and is of course how most users will charge i-MiEV from their household electricity supply.
Q3) Assuming that Q1 is no, where in their instructions does it state that a 13 A plug is suitable?
A conventional extension cable must never be used
Q4) This suggests to me that a dedicated 13 A supply capable of running at 13 A for 7 hours is required within 5 m of the car. Is a conventional 13 A plug and socket outlet suitable?

This is what I am trying to establish, apparently no other MiEV owners have reported this probelm. The vehicle is in for diagnostics.
Q5) If so, is it appropriate to take this off a standard rfc considering Appendix 15 Fig 15A (ii)?

Probably not! However in my case the garage has a dedicated supply and the socket in question in supplied from a 16A radial circuit.
 09 February 2012 06:24 PM
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AdrianWint

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Our American cousins are also having these problems.... several garage fires in the states have been put down to over heating of the receptical feeding the electric car.

Bearing in mind that they use 120V domestic supply, they must be having charging currents in the region of 20A or so for the same kind of recharge time.

I'll try & find a link later when I've taken nipper to Cadets!

Adrian
 09 February 2012 06:31 PM
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AdrianWint

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On a slighty off topic note....... will our present distribution system be able to cope if we all buy electric cars?

Currently, in the dead of night, the load on the system is quite low. OK, some houses have storage heaters and these may well be pulling, say, 6, 8, 10kW but prob only 2 or 3 houses in the street.

If, say, 50% of us (eventually) buy electric cars and they all take 3kW for 7 to 8 hours per night.... thats a lot of juice for the system to supply and substained period of time.... maybe even more than the daytime load? Are we heading for a problem here?

Adrian
 09 February 2012 07:02 PM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: AdrianWint
On a slighty off topic note....... will our present distribution system be able to cope if we all buy electric cars?


If they take off, petrol stations will probably stock spare batteries, already charged "off" peak, for suitable ergonomically designed cars. Get in quick and join the club.

An interesting project to concentrate the mind, for those all at sea, for something to invest their royalties on! Hello sailor!

Regards
 10 February 2012 09:32 AM
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perspicacious

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"If, say, 50% of us (eventually) buy electric cars and they all take 3kW for 7 to 8 hours per night.... thats a lot of juice for the system to supply and substained period of time.... maybe even more than the daytime load? Are we heading for a problem here?"

If the link I posted will download the notification form, you will see that this is being covered, hence the requirement for installations to be notified.

Regards

BOD
 10 February 2012 11:48 PM
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sparkiemike

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 09 February 2012 09:01 PM
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sparkingchip

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Australia uses a 15 amp outlet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udcrie_3o8o


However this is the video to watch Jaymack, I already have a tow hitch on my van do you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wAig6iykMo
 09 February 2012 09:19 PM
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sparkingchip

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A few more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzuA0KNZJlo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...vlkl4&feature=related

Another mobile unit a lorry mounted charger:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...PfEgo&feature=related

I'm getting the feeling here in the UK with it's 13 amp plugs that they are being stressed to their limits to make selling the vehicles easier.

Andy
 09 February 2012 09:35 PM
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sparkingchip

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If a electric vehicle charged from a 13 amp plug is supplied by a employer to an employee to use for work does it need to be tested as an portable appliance as well as having a MOT?

Andy
 09 February 2012 09:56 PM
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sparkiemike

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Does the PAT only get done after 3 years?
 09 February 2012 10:09 PM
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sparkingchip

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I expect the SAE- Society of Automotive Engineers will have a service programme devised that covers it.
 09 February 2012 11:18 PM
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mep

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The test current for a plug to BS1363-1 is related to the size of the flexible cord thus:

flex 0.5 mm2, rated 3A, test 3.5A, fuse rating 3A
flex 0.75 mm2, rated 6A, test 7A, fuse rating 13A
flex 1.0 mm2, rated 10A, test 11A, fuse rating 13A
flex 1.25 mm2, rated 13A, test 14A, fuse rating 13A
flex 1.5 mm2, rated 13A, test 14A, fuse rating 13A

The test current is passed through the plug for a minimum continuous period of 4 hours or longer until stability is reached with a maximum duration of 8 hours, stability being taken as less than 1K (i.e. 1degC) rise within 1 hour.

The temperature rise test is NOT carried out with the plug in a BS1363 socket outlet, but in a 'Dummy front plate'; the test supply is connected to the plug pins using screwed clamps.

The test for a single socket to BS1363-2 is that a test current (of 14 amps) is passed through to a test plug for a minimum continuous period of 4 hours or longer until stability is reached with a maximum duration of 8 hours, stability being taken as less than 1K (i.e. 1degC) rise within 1 hour. During the test, another 6 amps flows through the supply cable serving the socket (so the total load is 20 amps, with 14 amps leaving at the socket and 6 amps serving the remainder of the circuit).

The above would suggest that a plug to BS1363-2 inserted into a socket to BS1363-1 ought to be able to carry around 13 to 14 amps indefinitely (unless temperature continues to rise, at less than 1K per hour, beyond (much beyond) the 8 hour test limit). What if it rises at 0.5K per hour for several days...??? Good enough for the standard, but not so good in practice...

-------------------------
Regards,

MEP
 09 February 2012 11:30 PM
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alancapon

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Originally posted by: mep
. . . The above would suggest that a plug to BS1363-2 inserted into a socket to BS1363-1 ought to be able to carry around 13 to 14 amps indefinitely (unless temperature continues to rise, at less than 1K per hour, beyond (much beyond) the 8 hour test limit). . .

In an ideal world, yes. Unfortunately the test for the standard plug uses a test socket, and the test for the standard socket uses a test plug. The standard (as far as I can see) does not consider a standard plug in a standard socket. I suspect that this arrangement is a little more onerous!

Regards,

Alan.
 10 February 2012 11:01 PM
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AJJewsbury

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Originally posted by: alancapon

Originally posted by: mep

. . . The above would suggest that a plug to BS1363-2 inserted into a socket to BS1363-1 ought to be able to carry around 13 to 14 amps indefinitely (unless temperature continues to rise, at less than 1K per hour, beyond (much beyond) the 8 hour test limit). . .


In an ideal world, yes. Unfortunately the test for the standard plug uses a test socket, and the test for the standard socket uses a test plug. The standard (as far as I can see) does not consider a standard plug in a standard socket. I suspect that this arrangement is a little more onerous!



Regards,



Alan.

Indeed - the fuse will have a heating effect - it seems daft to ignore that.

Going back to the original problem - I suspect older sockets were more substantially built - bigger lumps of brass, so with a greater surface area. Perhaps try a 2nd hand socket?

- Andy.
 11 February 2012 10:34 AM
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mep

Posts: 39
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Originally posted by: AJJewsbury
Originally posted by: alancapon
Originally posted by: mep
. . . The above would suggest that a plug to BS1363-2 inserted into a socket to BS1363-1 ought to be able to carry around 13 to 14 amps indefinitely (unless temperature continues to rise, at less than 1K per hour, beyond (much beyond) the 8 hour test limit). . .


In an ideal world, yes. Unfortunately the test for the standard plug uses a test socket, and the test for the standard socket uses a test plug. The standard (as far as I can see) does not consider a standard plug in a standard socket. I suspect that this arrangement is a little more onerous!
Alan.


Indeed - the fuse will have a heating effect - it seems daft to ignore that.

Going back to the original problem - I suspect older sockets were more substantially built - bigger lumps of brass, so with a greater surface area. Perhaps try a 2nd hand socket?
- Andy.


A real plug is allowed to have a pin temperature rise of 37K when tested in the test rig. The test plug used for testing sockets has pins with arrangment and dimensions of a real plug, but additionally has an internal heating resistor, set to make the test plug have a pin temperature rise of 35K when tested in a test rig. This makes the test plug used for testing sockets a not particularly 'good' plug (albeit not the worst, by 2K), so it is a relatively conservative approach to testing the socket.

-------------------------
Regards,

MEP
 11 February 2012 11:27 AM
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Jaymack

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Originally posted by: AJJewsbury
Going back to the original problem - I suspect older sockets were more substantially built - bigger lumps of brass, so with a greater surface area. Perhaps try a 2nd hand socket?


The overheating has been a continuing bone of contention, from the inception of 13A plugs and sockets. Either they're not connected correctly; or the test doesn't allow for frequent temperature cycling that occurs for some appliances, I suspect that they are simply not capable of intermittent, high currents.

In the 70's, I well remember one recognised authority, who recommended periodic withdrawal and insertion of 13A plugs where necessary, "to clean the contact surfaces" I think it was from the Electric Centres.

Regards
 09 February 2012 11:58 PM
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sparkingchip

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All the fuss about you can only use a MCB from the same manufacturer of a consumer unit because approval depends on the testing of a completed assembly, then with plugs and sockets testing is carried out using test sockets and test plugs not actually replicating typical usage.

Looking on you tune at the Eaton charger units and the like I really feel a hard wired unit at bases such as home and office would be appropriate.

Another thing I feel there is going to be a series of major trip hazards on foot ways and in car parks, particularly for the visually and physically impaired members of the community. if we had all these trailing leads in our work places I am sure we would be pulled up for it when H&S is being reviewed.

I have to own up to having down loaded the COP when it was up for consultation, I fully intended to read and comment on it from the point of view of a electrician carrying out domestic installation work, but didn't get around to doing so, so missed my chance to comment at the appropriate time.

Andy
 10 February 2012 08:02 PM
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sparkingchip

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I was in a local garage today that carries out MOT's, they have had warnings from VOSA warning of the dangers of going under the bonnet of cars such as a Prius. Apparently a mechanic working for one of the national breakdown services has lost a finger due to retained charge on components.

Andy
 10 February 2012 08:06 PM
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alancapon

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It is the same with the long-life HID headlamps. They strike at 12kV and run at about 10kV. The inverter is usually built into the lamp holder.

Regards,

Alan.
 10 February 2012 08:15 PM
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perspicacious

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"It is the same with the long-life HID headlamps."

Still doesn't stop the boy racers retro fitting far eastern kits to their steeds and dazzling oncoming traffic. You can easily tell the illegal fitment.

Regards

BOD
 11 February 2012 03:07 PM
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broadgage

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Originally posted by: alancapon

It is the same with the long-life HID headlamps. They strike at 12kV and run at about 10kV. The inverter is usually built into the lamp holder.

Regards,
Alan.


I believe that you are mistaken re this.
In common with most other metal halide lamps, those used for vehicle headlights run at relatively low voltages, normally about 80 volts.
The starting voltage is indeed many KV and potentialy fatal, and proper precautions should be taken.
It would be very unwise to handle the connections to a lit lamp, since although the running voltage is unlikely to be dangerous, any loose connection or other fault could extinguish the lamp, and result in the dangerous starting voltage appearing instantly.
 10 February 2012 08:11 PM
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perspicacious

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"Apparently a mechanic working for one of the national breakdown services has lost a finger due to retained charge on components."

I'm puzzled over how he lost it. Electric shock burns that severe to cause the loss? A spanner across the components getting hot enough to burn? Or a shock that caused his hand to move and cut off a finger against an edge?

Two friends have each lost the top of a finger from catching it on the cooling fan of a conventional engine.

Regards

BOD
 10 February 2012 08:18 PM
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sparkingchip

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Looks like Alan is ahead of the game again, the guys at the garage said it was a AA man changing a light bulb. I tend to be wary of these stories as they may be urban myths, I was thinking it was a electric drive component that caused the problem, however they said that you have to allow up to six hours discharge period, so I presume that could be an inverter on the lights, not that I realised there is one on car lamps.

Andy
 10 February 2012 09:09 PM
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alancapon

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I only found out about them after a lamp failure in a 13 month old car - just out of warranty. Full marks to Nissan UK who agreed to honour the 12 month lamp warranty though. The garage insisted on checking the price before they would tell me how much it was - their first thoughts were that the decimal place was wrong on the price!

The garage showed me the safety manual for working on the lamps, as they knew what I did for a job. To cut a long story short, the inverter built into the lamp holder assembly had failed, which was on a several year warranty (can't remember how long now). They swapped the two lamps to prove whether the lamp or the inverter was at fault.

Regards,

Alan.
 10 February 2012 09:30 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
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There is always an additional danger to fingers when wearing a ring from short circuiting circuits or catching on something to bear in mind.

We have always been aware of high voltages on ignition circuits, but they seem to be sneaking into traditionally safe equipment.

Andy
 13 February 2012 12:01 AM
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AJJewsbury

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A real plug is allowed to have a pin temperature rise of 37K when tested in the test rig. The test plug used for testing sockets has pins with arrangment and dimensions of a real plug, but additionally has an internal heating resistor, set to make the test plug have a pin temperature rise of 35K when tested in a test rig. This makes the test plug used for testing sockets a not particularly 'good' plug (albeit not the worst, by 2K), so it is a relatively conservative approach to testing the socket

Ah - I didn't know that - that makes a lot more sense!
thanks
- Andy.
 13 February 2012 12:02 AM
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AJJewsbury

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OK - 2nd idea - replace both plug & socket with a pair from the same manufacturer - wait until they overheat and then send to manufacturer for their comment....
- Andy.
 24 May 2015 05:51 PM
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martinwinlow

Posts: 9
Joined: 24 May 2015

Hi, Perhaps I can help clear up a few points raised on this now, rather old, thread.

Most of the smaller battery pack-equipped EVs (LEAF, i-MiEV etc) will charge at 10A up to about 90% and then taper off to nothing when connected to a 13A socket with a so-called 'granny cable i.e. one supplied with EVs to charge from a standard 13A, 240V UK mains socket. These all have a 'brick' built into the cable no more than 30cms from the mains end, whose electronics restrict the current drawn by the EV's charger to 10A. Note that the 'brick' 'advertises' the available current to the EV (in this case 10A max) and the car complies. The *car* then controls the subsequent charging. All this is done by 2-way communication (not digital) through a 0.5mm2, 4th conductor in the cable between the 'brick' and the car-side plug. Sometimes the 'brick's electronics are incorporated into the car-side plug.

This *should* prevent overheating of the BS1363 plug. If it's (or the socket's) contacts get dirty, then even 10A will allow overheating eventually which is why they should be kept clean and/or be replaced 'regularly'. I have been charging my i-MiEV (which has a 16kWh battery, BTW) with about 10kWh daily for about 17 months now and can report no sign of over-heating at all in the weatherised MK socket - both socket and plug were new when I started. However, I leave the two almost continuously connected and this may prevent wear on the contacts that might have otherwise lead to heating issues.

Lastly, the car-side plug on all modern, production EVs sold in the EU (or US and pretty much everywhere else) use one of 2 designs - either the J1772/Type (Asia/US derived vehicles) 1 or the Mennekes/Type 2 (EU derived vehicles). Both are fantastically robust and capable of 1P 63A and 3P 32A (22kW!) respectively. In fact, Tesla have cleverly re-jigged the standard Type 2 plug and socket for the EU market to take up to 120kW when used with their 'SuperChargers'. They do get a bit warm though, after 30 minutes charging a flat battery. The same Type 2 Tesla socket can also use the standard 1P system too.

Hope that's helped! MW. EVBitz.uk
 24 May 2015 06:14 PM
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martinwinlow

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Joined: 24 May 2015

Originally posted by: sparkiemike

Does any body know what the test current is for a 13A plug and the duration of the test is?


I have discovered a link to BS1363-1 and as someone else has said the 1.5mm2 cable test involves passing 14A at 240V for 4 hours by which time the plug generally should not have gotten any hotter than about 50 degrees C - It's more complex than that but that's the just of it. Also, the BS states:-

"Plugs shall be suitable for use under the following conditions:
a) an ambient temperature in the range -5 °C to +40 °C, the average value over 24 h not exceeding 25 °C"

Beyond that, there are 2 types of heat-based test - heating the plug in an oven for 60 mins at 75 deg C - after which it should still essentially perform as deigned - and applying a glowing filament at 700-odd deg C to try and ignite the plugs bits.

https://www.uploady.com/#!/download/z7hTb5BIeUk/V1ngf79S4gYyi4ki

MW - EVBitz.uk
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