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Topic Title: 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths
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Created On: 20 February 2008 10:44 AM
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 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - davyn1 - 20 February 2008 10:44 AM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - BigRed - 20 February 2008 10:50 AM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - John Peckham - 20 February 2008 11:04 AM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - OMS - 20 February 2008 11:06 AM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - John Peckham - 20 February 2008 11:11 AM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - unshockable - 20 February 2008 11:37 AM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - OMS - 20 February 2008 12:19 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - keylevel - 20 February 2008 11:40 AM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - Jaymack - 20 February 2008 01:05 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - OMS - 20 February 2008 01:11 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - OMS - 20 February 2008 01:15 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - whitebear - 20 February 2008 05:26 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - normcall - 20 February 2008 02:01 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - oldbutnotforgotten - 20 February 2008 09:49 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - whjohnson - 29 July 2010 04:07 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - bobdenton - 20 February 2008 03:41 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - pjcomp - 20 February 2008 06:14 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - davyn1 - 20 February 2008 08:13 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - CMD - 29 July 2010 08:41 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - TCSC - 02 August 2010 02:18 PM  
 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths   - Phillron - 02 August 2010 04:06 PM  
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 20 February 2008 10:44 AM
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davyn1

Posts: 2870
Joined: 01 August 2004

http://www.voltiwork.de/gb/new...letter.php5?cmid=5755

i never new there were so many accidents we cause??
davy

-------------------------
just because i'm paranoid doesn't mean theyre not out to get me
 20 February 2008 10:50 AM
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BigRed

Posts: 580
Joined: 10 November 2006

"Research carried out on behalf of NICEIC, the UK's electrical contracting regulatory body, fo...."
so what about the other body's then....or is this actually an advert? if so bit misrepresenting of the rest of the industry!
 20 February 2008 11:04 AM
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John Peckham

Posts: 9097
Joined: 23 April 2005

So what are the other registering bodies doing with their members money? I would like to see more promotion by all the bodies of electrical safety and Part P.


John Peckham

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 20 February 2008 11:06 AM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
Joined: 23 March 2004

Hugely debateable figures - certainly the Institute of Fire Engineers are not reporting anything like as many electrical causes as the means of ignition in domestic properties.

By far and away the cause of most fires is deliberate ignition - electrical fires are way down the list.

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 20 February 2008 11:11 AM
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John Peckham

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OMS

I did a residential course at the Home Office Fire Officers Training school at Moreton in the Marsh a few years ago.

Electrical fires then were No. 3 on the list behind arson and smoking related.


John Peckham

-------------------------
John Peckham

http://www.astutetechnicalservices.co.uk/
 20 February 2008 11:37 AM
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unshockable

Posts: 956
Joined: 18 May 2007

Originally posted by: johnpeckham

OMS



I did a residential course at the Home Office Fire Officers Training school at Moreton in the Marsh a few years ago.



Electrical fires then were No. 3 on the list behind arson and smoking related.





John Peckham


John,

That's as maybe. I just did a search on the rospa website on fixed wiring; 18-21 accidents per annum in the last years available. The queries are very flexible. Perhaps we could together get some answers.

It is perhaps instructive that the picture on OP is a toaster?

http://www.hassandlass.org.uk/query/MainSelector.aspx

Regards

Simon
 20 February 2008 12:19 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
Joined: 23 March 2004

John,

The position in the list tends to move about a bit (statistics being statistics)but a general third place would be about right. My point was that arson probably accounts for over 40% whilst smoking and electrical faults are around 8 - 12% (dependant on building types.

Suprisingly, if you look at premises with a "sleeping risk" arson, smoking and electrical causes are all broadly in the same band - between about 7-10% each.

Historically, a lot of the "unknowns" were attributed to electrical causes - clearly not the case now we have better recording and reporting.

I've not been to M in M for a while so I don't know they are obtaining and analysing figures - I assume from FRS returns

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 20 February 2008 11:40 AM
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keylevel

Posts: 601
Joined: 31 October 2003

I remember Morton le Marsh - used the motorway RTA training area when I was working with Jag on collision avoidance systems. Some very nice pubs in the area...

Yes, but how many are actually proven to be caused by electrical faults, as opposed to classified as such when no other cause can be found? Any how many are due to appliances rather than fixed wiring?
 20 February 2008 01:05 PM
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Jaymack

Posts: 5571
Joined: 07 April 2004

Originally posted by: davyn1

i never new there were so many accidents we cause??


By "we" are you one of the great number of "unregimented" electricians stated in the report: -
Each year around 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths are caused by unsafe electrics in the home.
Said Jim Speirs, chief executive of NICEIC: "The extent to which a hard core of unregistered electricians are deliberately ignoring safety law is both shocking and deplorable.

The implication is that unregimented people are responsible, what about the registered people including those with the NICEIC and their unregistered hirelings; and the DIY'ers? - There are lies, damned lies and statistics - Spiers is playing on emotions with these statements.

What has been the increase in all incidents involving electrics, since the introduction of Part P? I have been led to believe these have increased year on year, from comments on forums such as this; although I have no proof of this. There is no mention of this in the report.

This country has lost all sense of direction, in all respects - Part P, immigration, yobs, NHS, social security, corruption, fraud, the workshy, the misfits - (not only in government and local authorities), congestion charges, fuel duty and the warmongers, who feel that we should use Joe Soap's tax revenue, to hold hands with our former penal colonies, to dictate to other countries.
Bring back Maggie and Enoch Powell!

P.S. I would like to see the crew on fire engines spray the yobs with coloured water, that would soon stop them.

Regards

Edited: 20 February 2008 at 01:19 PM by Jaymack
 20 February 2008 01:11 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
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Bloody Hell Jaymack - get it off your chest mate - don't hold back - feeling beter now

Regards

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 20 February 2008 01:15 PM
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OMS

Posts: 22864
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who feel that we should use Joe Soap's tax revenue, to hold hands with our former penal colonists, to dictate to other countries.


Bring back Maggie


Bit of a contradiction there - as I recall, Maggie dictated to everyone and didn't care how much taxpayers money was spent in doing so.

In fact she was revered (in some circles at least) for doing so

OMS

-------------------------
Let the wind blow you, across a big floor.
 20 February 2008 05:26 PM
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whitebear

Posts: 31
Joined: 02 July 2007

Hello

using an NICEIC registered contractor is no guarantee to get the job done to current British Standard and/or building regs, as I found to my cost when I had my own house "rewired". My experience subsequently of trying to find a firm to rectify the faults has only re-inforced this impression. Also, trustmark registration is no indication if they are any good.

I'm writing to my MP about this and possibly H&S executive.

Whitebear
 20 February 2008 02:01 PM
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normcall

Posts: 8550
Joined: 15 January 2005

Each year -- around -- 10 deaths -- unsafe electrics in the home.

Good to be exact and forget the number of deaths has therefore increased since 2005.
What was it that happened on Jan 1st 2005, remind me?

-------------------------
Norman
 20 February 2008 09:49 PM
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oldbutnotforgotten

Posts: 89
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Each year around 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths are caused by unsafe electrics in the home.
Said Jim Speirs, chief executive of NICEIC: "The extent to which a hard core of unregistered electricians are deliberately ignoring safety law is both shocking and deplorable.


Now lets put this in perspective,
On average, nearly nine people die every day on Britain's roads.
(source RCGB 2006)so therefore we should have a highway code costing around £60 with some guidence notes to help understand it, a test on it every year,a course every time there`s a change, a notification system for every journey,a form to fill in about each place we visit. Hmm could this be the next big job creator ?


Edited: 20 February 2008 at 09:52 PM by oldbutnotforgotten
 29 July 2010 04:07 PM
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whjohnson

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"The extent to which a hard core of unregistered electricians are deliberately ignoring safety law is both shocking and deplorable.


Oh yeah?

And what about 'registered electricians? How many accidents have they caused?

And Mr NIC - Whilst we're discussing your accident figures, perhaps you might like to enlighten us as to which particular figures give an accurate reflection?

http://www.niceic.org.uk/partp/newsitemjan052.html says: Amazingly, electricians have never been regulated despite faulty electrics causing an average of 12,500 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths each year

But -

http://www.niceic.org.uk/press/prnov044.html. says: Amazingly, electricians have never been regulated despite faulty electrics causing an average of 19 deaths and 2000 injuries every year.

And

http://www.niceic.org.uk/press/prdec043.html says:
Amazingly, electricians have never been regulated despite faulty electrics causing an average of 2336 house fires, 750 serious injuries and 10 deaths each year.

and

http://www.niceic.org.uk/press/prspt0704.html Say:
Despite the fact that faulty electrics result in 19 deaths and over 2000 non-fatal electric shock accidents each year

and

http://www.niceic.org.uk/press/prdec03.html says:
According to government statistics, fixed electrical installations in homes in England and Wales cause around 5 fatalities and over 500 non-fatal injuries every year. And 12500 fires in homes across the country are reported as having an electrical source of ignition causing about 25 deaths and 590 non-fatal injuries each year

and

http://www.niceic.org.uk/consumers/moving.html says:
According to government figures, around 10% of domestic fires are electrical, and of these a third are directly due to old or bad wiring. This equates to over 2000 electric shock accidents and 9300 electrical fires in homes every year.

I'm sure if I looked further I'd see more. So what is it then?

5,10,19, or 30 deaths a year?

2336, 9300, or 12500 house fires?

750, 1090, or 2000 injuries

Or is it just that these people make the figures up on the spot to try to prove a point?

Government statistics did show an increase in deaths since the onset of part P. Indeed the Govt ceased recording such stats in 2007.

The biggest risk now is cost saving by householders who make do with extension leads where once they would have had extra sockets installed or other new work carried out.

-------------------------
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 20 February 2008 03:41 PM
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bobdenton

Posts: 226
Joined: 13 February 2005

Originally posted by: davyn1

http://www.voltiwork.de/gb/new....php5?cmid=5755



i never new there were so many accidents we cause??

davy


Here are the conclusions of some research I did a while back, relating to years before the introduction of Part P. Rather less scary than the NICEIC sponsored research isn't it, but then it wasn't intended to scare anyone.

" Electrical Safety in the home - Some Facts.

The following figures are based on published statistics. Because the numbers of injuries and deaths associated with electricity are small they fluctuate considerably from year to year, and because the statistics are not compiled specifically to reveal the figures of interest, the following should be taken as ball park figures averaged over a number of years.

The hazard that electrics pose are twofold -

a. electric shock

b. fire

The source of the hazard can also be divided into 2 parts -

a. the fixed installation

b. appliances connected to the fixed installation

Electric Shock.
Each year there are about 2,000,000 non-fatal accidents in the home that require hospital treatment, of these about 5000, or 0.25%, are as a result of electric shock.

Each year there are about 4000 fatal accidents in the home and of these about 26, or 0.65%, are caused by electric shock. Of these, about 2 are caused by the fixed wiring of the house - the fuse board and electrical cables running to the wiring accessories, socket outlets and lamp-holders etc - installed by the electrician. About a further 24 are caused by appliances plugged into the wiring accessories by the householder.

Fire
There are about 64,000 house fires a year resulting in about 13,000 injuries and 450 deaths. Of these 8,250 fires are caused by electrical fault, resulting in 725 injuries, 205 of which are attributable to fixed wiring and 520 to appliances: and 16 deaths, 5 of which are attributable to fixed wiring and 11 to appliances.

In summary:

About 1% or 42 of the fatal accidents in the home each year result from electrical faults either directly, through shock, or indirectly through fire.

About 0.2% or 7 are attributable to fixed wiring and 35 to appliances.

TV sets are the most common cause of electrical fire.

Electric blankets are the most common cause of electricity related death - about 10 a year.

This is testimony to the safety of domestic electrical installations and electrical appliances over the years."
 20 February 2008 06:14 PM
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pjcomp

Posts: 391
Joined: 28 June 2004

>>About 0.2% or 7 are attributable to fixed wiring and 35 to appliances<<

Thanks for the breakdown, Bob - the problem with headlines is they're teh bit that get remembered but the bit that tell the smallest part of the story and can be the most misleading.

Most electricians are concerned with the wiring installation and all that entails. But the most dangerous bit of the overall electrical installatin is the appliances, over which we have no control or responsibility.

We can put in the safest, most robust wiring, then Joe Public goes out and buys a dodgy foreign-made heater, plugs it into a ropey old ganger along with seven other devices, and when his house burns down or his kids are electrocuted, it's written up as "an electrical fault" and all electricians are immediately in the frame.

I'm not sure how we can get round this misperception, but I don't think the quoted headliner from the NICEIC is any help at all.

PJ

 20 February 2008 08:13 PM
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davyn1

Posts: 2870
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Jaymack ,,hope ya feeling better
i'm actualy with the ECA so am well and truly registered
davy

-------------------------
just because i'm paranoid doesn't mean theyre not out to get me
 29 July 2010 08:41 PM
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CMD

Posts: 213
Joined: 17 November 2008

hi

As mentioned by someone else I suspect electrical appliances cause far more fires than the fixed wiring of the electrical installation


Regards
 02 August 2010 02:18 PM
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TCSC

Posts: 176
Joined: 25 April 2007

I'm somewhat dissappointed in the tone of some of the debate here.
Some of you seem to be saying you have to accept the risk of doing your job badly. So, if you must, then think of it in personal terms. What will one death on your concience mean to you?
 02 August 2010 04:06 PM
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Phillron

Posts: 1412
Joined: 18 January 2007

Originally posted by: TCSC

I'm somewhat dissappointed in the tone of some of the debate here.

Some of you seem to be saying you have to accept the risk of doing your job badly. So, if you must, then think of it in personal terms. What will one death on your concience mean to you?



Its hard to debate a subject such as this when the Niceic distributes figures based on left over lottery tickets,each set of figures over the years wildly different from the previous left over numbers
Statistics

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