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Topic Title: Bootlace ferrule crimpee
Topic Summary:
Created On: 14 January 2019 09:06 AM
Status: Read Only
Linear : Threading : Single : Branch
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - ben22 - 14 January 2019 09:06 AM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - rocknroll - 14 January 2019 09:50 AM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - wallywombat - 14 January 2019 10:10 AM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - rocknroll - 14 January 2019 10:34 AM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - geoffsd - 14 January 2019 01:24 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - sparkingchip - 15 January 2019 01:15 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - paulskyrme - 14 January 2019 01:33 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - perspicacious - 14 January 2019 01:58 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - paulskyrme - 14 January 2019 04:55 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - dustydazzler - 14 January 2019 01:57 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - tattyinengland - 14 January 2019 02:36 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - tattyinengland - 14 January 2019 02:37 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - ben22 - 14 January 2019 04:47 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - AJJewsbury - 14 January 2019 04:50 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - sparkingchip - 14 January 2019 11:50 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - paulskyrme - 15 January 2019 10:48 AM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - mapj1 - 15 January 2019 01:11 AM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - chrispearson - 15 January 2019 09:45 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - mapj1 - 15 January 2019 02:04 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - sparkingchip - 15 January 2019 02:58 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - paulskyrme - 15 January 2019 06:54 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - sparkingchip - 15 January 2019 08:25 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - mapj1 - 15 January 2019 09:25 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - wallywombat - 15 January 2019 11:18 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - sparkingchip - 23 January 2019 01:48 PM  
 Bootlace ferrule crimpee   - AJJewsbury - 23 January 2019 03:18 PM  
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 14 January 2019 09:06 AM
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ben22

Posts: 50
Joined: 26 March 2013

I'm in the market for a new crimp tool, which ones do you guys recommend if any? I'm also looking to potentially get a set of crimps to go alongside? Which colour scheme is generally accepted? The German or French scheme?
 14 January 2019 09:50 AM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
Joined: 03 October 2005

Oiginally I bought the Knipex one and it wasn't cheap, I paid around £120 for it.
It depends on where you work, if your industry needs you to use tools with a certificate of compliance like RoHS or others then it will cost you an arm and a leg, if you want one for general electrical installation work then there are plenty on Ebay and other places, I bought another with 2400 crimps for around £40 and it is fine and fit for purpose, I only bought it mainly for the crimps.
Whether German or French colours that does not matter red is red and blue is blue etc in any language, if you want to go full English there are grey, brown and black crimps around.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 14 January 2019 10:10 AM
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wallywombat

Posts: 96
Joined: 19 October 2018

Originally posted by: rocknroll
Whether German or French colours that does not matter red is red and blue is blue etc in any language, if you want to go full English there are grey, brown and black crimps around.
Regards

The crimp colours refer to the size of cable they hold. There are two standards, French and German, with different sets of colours. General BS7671 work doesn't require any particular colour standard.
 14 January 2019 10:34 AM
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rocknroll

Posts: 9677
Joined: 03 October 2005

The crimp colours refer to the size of cable they hold.


I am fully aware of that, you can also get some that are colour coded with a double band, I have some in my control panels.

Regards

-------------------------
"Take nothing but a picture,
leave nothing but footprints!"
-------------------------
"Oh! The drama of it all."
-------------------------
"You can throw all the philosophy you like at the problem, but at the end of the day it's just basic electrical theory!"
-------------------------
 14 January 2019 01:24 PM
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geoffsd

Posts: 2342
Joined: 15 June 2010

It depends whether you are talking about proper crimps and crimpers - i.e. the correct size for the core and hexagonal crimpers, or

the rubbish generally sold for domestic installations where the crimp might be stated as suitable for several core sizes and is merely a squash flat crimp for which you may as well use a hammer.

Also, crimps should not be used on solid cores.
 15 January 2019 01:15 PM
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sparkingchip

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 14 January 2019 01:33 PM
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paulskyrme

Posts: 1364
Joined: 12 February 2003

I like the Weidmuller bootlace ferrule cimpers, I have a few, look up PZ4, PZ6Roto, PZ16 & PZ50, depending on how large you want to go.
I was brought up on German (Ford), but my main local wholesaler is French (Schneider distributor).
It doesn't really matter as long as the right size is used as they are colour coded on size as has been said.
Wire colours and alphanumeric idents are better for identification of function.
 14 January 2019 01:58 PM
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perspicacious

Posts: 8055
Joined: 18 April 2006

Why bother crimping the ferrule? A major company building panels doesn't and relies on the screw doing the job. Whilst I don't like it, I'm actually struggling to find a Reg to support my dislike!
If you quote good workmanship/manf instructions, please post a link to the instructions that accompany/published for the crimps!
I can only think of the torque setting being different, but tenuous to say the least.
Any suggestions?!

Regards

BOD
 14 January 2019 04:55 PM
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paulskyrme

Posts: 1364
Joined: 12 February 2003

Originally posted by: perspicacious

Why bother crimping the ferrule? A major company building panels doesn't and relies on the screw doing the job. Whilst I don't like it, I'm actually struggling to find a Reg to support my dislike!

If you quote good workmanship/manf instructions, please post a link to the instructions that accompany/published for the crimps!

I can only think of the torque setting being different, but tenuous to say the least.

Any suggestions?!



Regards



BOD


Bod,
I would say that if this is a control panel, for machinery then you won't find anything in BS 7671 that is relevant apart from 110.2 (xi) which excludes them from BS 7671 and puts them in EN 60204 territory.
I would then quote them 4.7 from EN 60204-1 & ask them if they have approval from the crimp OEM that is a suitable method of fitting them. Which we know it isnt, so they are stuffed, the crimp OEM will require it to be crimped with a suitable tool.
I normally get Weidmuller crimps from the wholesaler, so Weidmuller tooling.

BS EN 60204-1:2006 AC:2010
4.7 Installation
Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the electrical equipment supplier's
instructions.
 14 January 2019 01:57 PM
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dustydazzler

Posts: 3068
Joined: 19 January 2016

Check EBay , loads of stuff on there
 14 January 2019 02:36 PM
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tattyinengland

Posts: 1053
Joined: 23 November 2006

Hi Bod

I can virtually guarantee that if the bootlace ferrules are in a control panel and you give each wire a firm pull - somewhere in that panel, one of the wires will pop out and the ferrule will stay in.

Phone up the installer and tell them to come back and re-terminate this cable before you continue your inspection of the installation and then do this a a few times - and I'm willing to bet they'll never fail to use a ferrule crimper again.

(It happened to me on the very first control panel I ever build in a workshop; when the professional control panel builder was on holiday on my first day on the job and I was given a challenge to build this 2m x 3m motor control panel with alan bradely control / input and output cards and telemetry and three variable speed drives.) - My first ever control panel! I could follow a drawing quite fine but had never used ferrules before. I had to re-build the panel on site out in the cold. I never again failed to use a ferrule crimp and now use ferrules regularly but don't do controls muchanymore - Its a very closed market when you run a ltd company.
 14 January 2019 02:37 PM
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tattyinengland

Posts: 1053
Joined: 23 November 2006

Sorry Ben22 - I dont know what make my ferrule crimps are but they're really good with blue handles and I got them from RS components I think. Very vague and not very helpful I'm afraid - if I remember when I get home - I'll post it.........
 14 January 2019 04:47 PM
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ben22

Posts: 50
Joined: 26 March 2013

Geoff's, yes I mean the proper hexagonal crimpers, in my current role wether they are certified or notmwlnt matter too much however I will most likely go for a certified pair as I prefer to use decent gear especially when it comes to crimping etc
 14 January 2019 04:50 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 17795
Joined: 13 August 2003

Also, crimps should not be used on solid cores.

Unless they're deigned for such use - which some are - e.g. solistrand.
- Andy.
 14 January 2019 11:50 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

These proper bootlace ferrule crimps, are they used in both cage and screw terminals?
 15 January 2019 10:48 AM
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paulskyrme

Posts: 1364
Joined: 12 February 2003

Originally posted by: sparkingchip

These proper bootlace ferrule crimps, are they used in both cage and screw terminals?


Yep, by me & those who work with me they are.
Any class 5 or 6 stranded conductor gets a bootlace on it's end under a screwed terminal of any kind.
Maybe not a Wago lever terminal, but it depends, they can be used in them, & I prefer them to be used.
Even in BS1363 plugs, and yes, it can be done with some thought.
 15 January 2019 01:11 AM
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mapj1

Posts: 12039
Joined: 22 July 2004

By those of us who don't like our flex ends to get frayed in the terminals, yes. Sometimes 2 ferrules side by side in one cage, depends on the size and what is being wired.
I have used them to make a rather neater job of the blue commando plugs when the flex is a bit inadequate.

Also used with the more aggressive large sized lever wagos, again to stop the end getting chopped off.

Sometimes handy to group more than one wire, when you want the through loop unbroken, even if the connection at some mid point is removed.

My crimper for the small sizes (less than 1mmsq, remember I do electronics) is the CK ratchet model, and is not a hex crimp, but puts in single row of rat bites on the flat of a depressed "D" profile. Never had any issues with it, and on the odd one that has been sectioned (*), the post compression filling factor is excellent even after the full set of tracked vehicle vibration tests.... I use a hex for the larger sizes, and a hand pumped hydraulic hex jaws model for the really large ones.

* after tests to Def Stan 35 part 5
ftp://ftp.iks-jena.de/pub/mitarb/lutz/standards/dstan/00/035/05000300.pdf

For those not familiar, I can't find the tracked vehicle test on youtube, but something military and electronic is being shaken to the nearest equivalent US army standard here Normally some hours on each of 3 axes, or to first failure, whichever occurs first.

-------------------------
regards Mike


Edited: 15 January 2019 at 01:34 AM by mapj1
 15 January 2019 09:45 PM
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chrispearson

Posts: 1095
Joined: 15 February 2018

Originally posted by: mapj1

My crimper for the small sizes (less than 1mmsq, remember I do electronics) is the CK ratchet model, and is not a hex crimp ...


But for this forum, I doubt that I would have bought a crimper or any ferrules, but one seems essential for the very fine strands of RCBO conductors. The CK model works well for me - it's what Eddie's have in stock.

I might add that it is also useful for some automotive wiring.
 15 January 2019 02:04 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 12039
Joined: 22 July 2004

Some nice pics of what I assume is a German or Austrian factory board. It is a pity the Dehn thing was not also sprung terminals - see how much time is lost with the screwdriver, and see how few other items in the board are screw terminals of any kind.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 15 January 2019 02:58 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
Joined: 18 January 2003

I believe it is a three phase domestic board with 35-amp main switches from viewing other Dehn videos.

In other videos Thomas the electrician made the point that he was installing cables with crimps one end only where they are going to be in screw terminals and not on the ends that are going to be terminated in cages.

What, if any, are the advantages of using a cord end ferrule on a conductor that is terminated in a cage terminal?
 15 January 2019 06:54 PM
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paulskyrme

Posts: 1364
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It ensures that all the strands are suitably restrained into the terminal.
 15 January 2019 08:25 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
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With a screw terminal and fine strands of copper a cord end ferrule stops the screw damaging or severing the conductors. It also stops the conductors going up the sides of the screw.

A cage clamp should prevent those issues in the first place. So the only reason I can see for using a cord end ferrule is to stop lateral movement of conductors that do not completely fill the cage after the terminal has been tightened to the correct torque.

I am not convinced that ferrules are required in cage terminations and I think that the installation of the conductors shown in the Dehn video seems acceptable.

Andy
 15 January 2019 09:25 PM
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mapj1

Posts: 12039
Joined: 22 July 2004

I agree, unless the wire is very thin, and so long as there is only one wire in the cage, a bare end is normally perfectly fine, to a large extent it is a matter of habit or 'house style'
We tend to put them on the end of everything that can take them, but that is because when you are making many of the same thing, the loom is prepared on a peg board, and laced, prior to installation so you need something to stop the numbers falling off. If it is not that sort of job, then it is less of an issue if the wires are being cut and fitted one at a time.

-------------------------
regards Mike
 15 January 2019 11:18 PM
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wallywombat

Posts: 96
Joined: 19 October 2018

As an aside, that seems like a lot of switchgear for for a domestic board. What's it all doing?
 23 January 2019 01:48 PM
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sparkingchip

Posts: 11682
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Well, for starters, it's three phase.

Andy B.
 23 January 2019 03:18 PM
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AJJewsbury

Posts: 17795
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The write up says it's a "residential building" - but I suspect they mean something more like a block of apartments rather than a simple single dwelling. Perhaps it's a "landloards" DB supplying things like automatic corridor lighting and controls for shared services like heating, hot water, and perhaps lifts etc..
- Andy.
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